Business And Economy Archive
Thread: Why there shold be NO increase at the Bazaar
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Talmor1
Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:11 am
#1
First off, I am 100% opposed to changing the Item Max (Currently 25) and the Monetary Cap (6,000 Credits) for selling items.
1. Removing the Monetary Cap for items: Great for high end loot. Would not betoo bad as long as long as there is NO change to the Item Max or the number of days it is on the bazaar. Would allow select items to be on the bazaar (in particular high end loot) but would reduce player/player interactions (the point of a MMORPG) and would reduce the effectiveness of Merchant Vendors.
2. Removing the Item Max: HORRIBLE IDEA. Would result in Clutter being on the bazaar. Would result in needless searching to find what you need. Players would flood the market with these items. Granted, they would only stay on the vendor for 7 days, but there would be a lot more players placing them on the bazaar.
3. Removing the Item Max AND the Monetary Capfor items: WORST IDEA. Even MORE clutter on the Bazaar. Bazaar would become un-navigatable. People would Undersell Items. High end items would sell for dirt cheap. Economy would become busted. Crafting classes would have difficulty supporting themselves because they would need to sell in bulk. Resource Sellers would loose their business because players would need to Harvest their own resources to reduce Overhead Expenses. Granted, this would be great for Non-Crafting Players, but this would result in less Crafting Players and thus would result in less variety of Items. Certain specialty items would become phased out of the game. High end crafters would want to only sell their high end items and the low end items would not be economically feesible for the average crafter or the noob crafter!
While doing Option 1 (Removing Monetary Cap) alone may seem to be an OK idea, it is NOT a good option. This would be a really bad idea if people forgot the consequences of Option 3 (Removing both Item Max and the Monetary Cap). I can forsee a small minority complaining enough about Option 2 (Removing the Item Max) and the Devs giving in and increasing the number of items possible to be sold.
The other extreme is as follows:
4. Increasing the Monetary Cap to an arbitrary number (10k): Why? This would have a direct effect on inflation. A lot of items that are normally sold on the Bazaar for 6k would instantly jump to 10k. Granted, after a while, this would normalize and price competition would probably drive prices down. However, what is the reasoning behind 10k?People are going to eventually normalize costs to 10k. Most are not going to be price fluxuated.
IMO the point of the Bazaar is for the NEW players. For the New players to find their low end weapons... their grinding weapons... their first suit of Bone Armor... a small storage droid... some new clothes... a few small stacks of resources... a few crates of powerups. Increasing this amount makes it more difficult for new players. I know people might want the higher amount so that they can sell more resources on the bazaar at the same price, but this would still hurt the new players just as much. People sell their 35 count stacks of copper so that someone can just make a backpack or this one item that they need. THAT is what the point of the Bazaar is and should be.
5. Increasing the number of items sold on the bazaar by a certain amount. This may be a good option, especially if it is keyed to the Merchant Class. Would be a good incentive for players that take the time to invest in those branches. I wouldsay that the maximum should beno more than 100. However, I do not know the implications for this. It could eventually result in the same issue as Option 2.
Under NO circumstance should Merchant go the way of the JTL Piloting classes and the Politician. It should cost points! Do NOT remove the Skill Point Useage of Merchant. It would magnify problems especially for option 5.
Instead, we should concentrate on improving UI of the Bazaar. We need to concentrate on how to improve navigation of the Bazaar. Searching for items (like you would on Google) would be an improvement. Improved divisions (in particular resources) would be definately helpful. Divide it similar to when you are using a resource tool. It would make it simpler to be able to search for Titanium Steel or Nabooian Fiberplast, etc.
Just remember, whatever we do to the Bazaar's UI, it will also be reflected on the PC owned Vendors.
bluejanus
Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:16 am
#2
Auction definitely needs work. It's pretty useless. Auction items should probably occupy a different subcategory in the bazaar and the price and bid caps should be altered, i.e. preventing sellers from auctioning something at the max bid price.
Oblox
Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:19 am
#3
A search facility on the bazaar would be useful too.
I hate having to search through misc items.
I hate having to search through misc items.
Famine101
Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:59 am
#4
Talmor1 wrote:
5. Increasing the number of items sold on the bazaar by a certain amount. This may be a good option, especially if it is keyed to the Merchant Class. Would be a good incentive for players that take the time to invest in those branches. I wouldsay that the maximum should beno more than 100. However, I do not know the implications for this. It could eventually result in the same issue as Option 2.
This sorta leaves the non-merchant sellers out in the cold.
Xix13
Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:16 am
#5
I disagree about the skill points for merchant. In SWG, SO much fighting needs to be done, even by pure crafters, that ANYTHING to save skill points is helpful. Allowing merchant to go into the non-skill-point category would allow crafters points for combat/scout skills and even FS skills without having to sacrifice the ability to, e.g., hunt, to present attractive vendors. 30 skill pts (novice scout + novice combat) is an awful lot of pts for a crafter to give up just to get started collecting the resources they'll need to ply their craft.
As for the bazzar, I agree that it should not be altered from its present configuration. I'd even want the monetary cap lowered back down to draw more people to player vendors, particularly ones in more remote locations. I can sell the same weapon for 6K on the Spamonet bazzar in seconds that won't sell for 3K on my Talus vendor. There's got to be some way to spread out the merchant population from the 1.5K radius around Spamonet and Greed. Indeed, the bazzar SHOULD be for new players, and the prices should be kept low enough that they can afford the early level weapons, armour, etc. without having to resort to panhandling.
As for the bazzar, I agree that it should not be altered from its present configuration. I'd even want the monetary cap lowered back down to draw more people to player vendors, particularly ones in more remote locations. I can sell the same weapon for 6K on the Spamonet bazzar in seconds that won't sell for 3K on my Talus vendor. There's got to be some way to spread out the merchant population from the 1.5K radius around Spamonet and Greed. Indeed, the bazzar SHOULD be for new players, and the prices should be kept low enough that they can afford the early level weapons, armour, etc. without having to resort to panhandling.
Talmor1
Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:19 am
#6
Talmor1 wrote:
5. Increasing the number of items sold on the bazaar by a certain amount. This may be a good option, especially if it is keyed to the Merchant Class. Would be a good incentive for players that take the time to invest in those branches. I wouldsay that the maximum should beno more than 100. However, I do not know the implications for this. It could eventually result in the same issue as Option 2.
This sorta leaves the non-merchant sellers out in the cold.
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I understand that and I believe they should be left out in the cold. Having Merchant abilities should assist you with earning more credits in the game. Non-crafting classes have plenty of other ways to make their money in the game.
I am just opposed to removing anything that will make this game a more solo game. I like the interactions between a Crafter and their Customer. I like the interactions between a looter and Customer. This is a MMORPG! Vendors are a good way for people that need items quickly or cannot find a Master (Insert Crafting Class Here).
For crying out loud, Press Control+P. Look under "Search for Players." And search for someone who can help you out. This is the best way to have a healthy economy! If you are looking for a Weaponsmith. Do a quick search before you go hunting through a dozen vendors. Go to a couple hot starports and search for a minute. That WS can probably do a quick custom job order or the WS can maybe direct you to their vendor!
SOE is pushing for more grouping and more MMORPG interactions! This is one facet of a MMORPG. Interacting with new people. Who knows, you might just find a new source of items. There are plenty of new Players that could probably make great quality items or will devote their time to crafting a particular item just to get a niche. New Players will be willing to jump on an order immediately. That tried and true Vendor that you always go to may be great if it is always stocked. But why do you keep going to their for that once a month stock? Crafters are more willing to cut a deal when you contact them! Just because it is fun for a lot of us to haggle and to interact with clients. Some do not... you just need to say hello to them from time to time.
Making it so that the Bazaar is one stop shopping will drastically hurt these interactions. Everything will be on the bazaar and it will just destroy the whole point of a MMORPG. Esepcially in our Economy.
WoW is the only exception. They have a market in one city where it is one stop shopping and it drastically reduces Player/Player Interaction!
Tumbler2002
Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:58 am
#7
I am in favor of raising the monetary cap higher. I don't agree that it would be used to sell the same items at higher prices. I think that new players have a hard time adjusting to how to find things because these bazaars offer so little of what is trully available. If there was a very high monetary cap people could sell things like Heavy mining stations, armor, and all sorts of misc things that new players aren't even aware of until much later into the game.
You could also adjust the bazaar so that people could have either 25 items or a total sale price of 1 million between all the auctions. That way someone wanting to sell High level starships could only list a few and would have to do a lot of work to keep it stocked, but new players could find ships and things they need much easier.
You could also adjust the bazaar so that people could have either 25 items or a total sale price of 1 million between all the auctions. That way someone wanting to sell High level starships could only list a few and would have to do a lot of work to keep it stocked, but new players could find ships and things they need much easier.
RasalTheWise
Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:07 pm
#8
By design, the bazaar is a beginner's seller market. Where new people can sell their wares and start to make credits, merchants can put up bargains to advertize their wares, and combat-related professions can unload their low-end items.
For all the non-artisan professions who want to sell their loot...offer them to loot vendors, or pick up some artisan skills so you can put up a vendor.
For all the non-artisan professions who want to sell their loot...offer them to loot vendors, or pick up some artisan skills so you can put up a vendor.
Tumbler2002
Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:14 pm
#9
RasalTheWise wrote:
By design, the bazaar is a beginner's seller market. Where new people can sell their wares and start to make credits, merchants can put up bargains to advertize their wares, and combat-related professions can unload their low-end items.
For all the non-artisan professions who want to sell their loot...offer them to loot vendors, or pick up some artisan skills so you can put up a vendor.
I think that is a problem, not a feature. The bazaars are a very important part of this game that shouldn't be cast as just a starter feature. There is a happy middle ground here somewhere and it may involve tieing in the merchant skill with additional bazaar abilities. (Mabye one of the skills offers higher bazaar price limit for higher listing costs? I do think that increasing the amount of items one can list will mess things up and handicap the vendors we have in place now.
Something I find very annoying in this game is the need to search for items. Driving around the edge of cities in hopes of finding a stocked vendor is not a feature I relish about this game. We have bazaars in cities, we can adjust them so that people don't need to spend so much time searching for a backpack, or a small naboo house, or any other item a player may want.
Now if there was a way to search an entire planet, vendors and all, for a certain item and then go pick it up, or have it delivered, that would be a major benefit for the player economy. But short of that happening a better bazaar will improve a lot of things.
Message Edited by Tumbler2002 on 02-08-2005 11:19 AM
Born_Tatooinian
Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:30 pm
#10
I think that a Bazaar should be busy and flooded with goods 
TaimakAceock
Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:39 pm
#11
THAT wouldn't be a bad idea at all. Leave the bazaar as is, but come up with a way to search all the vendors (even better, just vendors with planetary ad campaign enabled)via the bazaarterminalso that you don't have to spend 3 hours looking for a backpack. My only problem with upping the bazaar limits is that it basicly steps on the toes of people who decided to take up merchant. Think of it this way, how many jedi would be pissed off if a fencer could use a 1H lightsaber...even if not as effectively and without force enchancements. Same idea here. In my opinion, raising the limits on bazzar is just a slap in the face to merchants.
Tumbler2002 wrote:
Now if there was a way to search an entire planet, vendors and all, for a certain item and then go pick it up, or have it delivered, that would be a major benefit for the player economy. But short of that happening a better bazaar will improve a lot of things.
Message Edited by Tumbler2002 on 02-08-2005 11:19 AM
Talmor1
Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:42 pm
#12
It would be nice to know what is on a vendor. But not what price it is listed for. I think that too much instant pricing comparisons would really have an adverse affect on the Crafting Economy. It may be an irrational fear, however, the major problem is underbidding Crafters. I am not talking 5-10% underbidding. I am talking selling High Quality items for around 3 CPU. Where one can argue that this still affords a good profit, but this would force players to Harvest their own materials and to have to have multiple accounts to harvest large items. They couldn't buy from a Resource Vendor. Their prices are around 2 CPU for average quality items. What if that player with 2-3 accounts could place all their harvesters and pump out the perfect resource. He would monoplize the market for months. What about the people entering in the game. They couldn't harvest these items at the time they spawned. Coupled with the stagnant spawns on specific resources, they are left with paying for those high quality resources. They could not compete with the high amounts someone who harvested resources or had better buying power.
The new players HAVE to buy from a Resource Vendor. An older player COULD if they ran out. Granted, this may be an extreme case, and these prices may be around 10 cpu for some items because they require gathered materials or looted materials (like Krayt Skins or Wooly Hide). However, this would really drive down prices that would be too restrictive for Crafting Classes. SOE recently posted the state of the economy and they showed that prices HAVE NOT CHANGED AT ALL! There have been some inflation on certain items, yes. But those are for the High End items. HIGH END ITEMS SHOULD COST A LOT.
They should be items that you strive for. Anybody could play for about a month and get a few million credits easily. Heck, Crafting Classes could do Artisian Mission runs for around 50-75k per hour (depending on computer speeds). If you assume only 10 hours per week, 4 weeks per month. That is 2-3 million per month! A lot of us probably play a lot more than that every week. This is just crafting. I have heard people pull in 200k per hour on a good buff session (after overhead expenses) while hunting (even after the nerf a couple weeks ago). Thats around 8 million per month.
Yes you will only be able to afford a few of those high end loot items and the such, but you will still be able to afford it.
I am not trying to tell anyone how they should play the game, but just keep things in perspective.
Straker_Atrella
Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:37 pm
#13
I agree a lot with what Talmore is saying.
The Bazaar is a stepping stone marketplace for both new players as well as new crafters. Eventually both move on.
Using the Global Map, it makes it far easier to find vendors. Empty ones do not show up on it. Far to many people NEVER use it to search for things. When I hear about people driving around looknig for vendors, it really confuses me.
As a crafter, it only takes a couple of points in Artisan to have a couple of vendors with a decent limit. If you want more you CHOOSE to get more merchant, nobody forces you to spend those points. There is no way that Merchant should be free, we should be fighting to make Merchant better, not make it free. Make an interface that allows Merchants to sell other peoples items. Don't degrade merchants by making the Bazaar better.
However, there are a couple of changes that I would like to see made to the bazaar that will not hurt merchants.
-Better sorting and organization. This could apply to all vendors.
- A "new" type of auction system. This would apply to Loot items only, no crafted items at all. Minimum price 100k, max 100 million (remembre this is loot items only.) Each auction can go up to 7 days. Each person can only have One auction going at a time. However, Merchant skills would let you get more auctions, maxing at 5 for Master.
These 2 changes would adress many of the problems that people have with the Bazaar without hurting Merchants at all.
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