Business And Economy Archive

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Starcloud wrote:

And what happens when the resource kits become rare enough that you're only finding them for sale at thirty million credits?

Relying on resource kits to give you all the resources you need may work in the short term... in the long term, it's not a sustainable option.

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Starcloud wrote:

And what happens when the resource kits become rare enough that you're only finding them for sale at thirty million credits?

Relying on resource kits to give you all the resources you need may work in the short term... in the long term, it's not a sustainable option.

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answer = people will do what they have done in the past (before resource kits) ..contact their friendly neighborhood resources dealer.

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Ledao wrote:

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Starcloud wrote:

And what happens when the resource kits become rare enough that you're only finding them for sale at thirty million credits?

Relying on resource kits to give you all the resources you need may work in the short term... in the long term, it's not a sustainable option.

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For avian meat, it is absolutely a sustainable option. And, for that matter, for whatever else I want to use them for.

I think I have 30 or 35 of 'em now... So, 900k more units of avian meat? About 8,000 sets of buffs... 48,000 packs.

(And, of course, most large crafters are or could be in a similar situation...)

Further, they will never get anywhere near as high as 30 million credits -- that would be 1,000 cpu. The supply is just too great.

Message Edited by Ledao on 03-18-2005 11:03 AM

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Isrem wrote:

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Ledao wrote:

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Starcloud wrote:

And what happens when the resource kits become rare enough that you're only finding them for sale at thirty million credits?

Relying on resource kits to give you all the resources you need may work in the short term... in the long term, it's not a sustainable option.

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For avian meat, it is absolutely a sustainable option. And, for that matter, for whatever else I want to use them for.

I think I have 30 or 35 of 'em now... So, 900k more units of avian meat? About 8,000 sets of buffs... 48,000 packs.

(And, of course, most large crafters are or could be in a similar situation...)

Further, they will never get anywhere near as high as 30 million credits -- that would be 1,000 cpu. The supply is just too great.

Message Edited by Ledao on 03-18-2005 11:03 AM

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The CU hits on May 5th, no more need for avian meet and those buffs any more. Best you think about something else to do with the resource kits?

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Pawlin wrote:

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Ledao wrote:

...I think I have 30 or 35 of 'em now... So, 900k more units of avian meat? About 8,000 sets of buffs... 48,000 packs.

...

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Well all you really did was trade buying harvested meat at 50-150 cpu like you used to for buying a big pile of 30k resource kits.

YOu still had to buy those 30k resource kits. You probably paid 2-4M for them.

So the net difference is really just that you aren't employeeing people to harvest BUT you did pump a bunch of money out into the economy in one shot by buying the 30-35 kits you've got.

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This is true, but the difference is a bit greater than you indicate.

Avian meat on my server was 100-250 cpu in shift, and as much as 1k cpu out of shift. Now, of course, the stuff that was 1k cpu is available for the cost of a resource kit (2.5-3m on my server, and holding steady), and the in-shift stuff isn't worth bothering with, since hunters aren't willing to hunt Avian meat for under 100 cpu (due to the frequent availability of Chef or BE contracts for critters with much higher drop rates).

Further, the kits must be considered within the context of the harvesting changes. Once upon a time, I had to pay pretty well for Herbivore meat in order to get enough to meet my needs... But, of course, with the 100% increase in harvesting while in a group, now it's much easier to send a half-dozen of my guildies out to Lok for a couple of hours when I need meat.

And, of course, there's no longer any need for me to try to source long out-of-shift extractable resources...

So, yes, I pumped a whole bunch of money into the economy by buying resource kits (and ADKs), but the fact remains that I spent a mere fraction of what I otherwise would have spent. The are some more factors involved (mainly the huge surplus of *all* resources that we're experiencing...), but the effect seems clear enough -- my costs were cut by 90-ish percent.

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Milgram wrote:

Ya, 400 cpu is defenently very high. I don't quite know what i was thinking. I guess somehow converted 4 million for 10k resources.

On Kettemoor, resource deeds go for about 4-4.5 million. If you want meat hunted, at 30-50 cpu, you will get 500k of it. at 60-80 cpu, stop buying when you run out of money. Your money will stop long before the meat does.

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Meat, yes -- Avian meat, no...

A few totals from my meat buys before the kits came out:

A 250 cpu shift -- 500k units
A 150 cpu shift -- 300-400k units
A 100 cpu shift -- 100k units
An 80 cpu shift -- Under 30k units

Avian meat is a special case, of course, but it is also the case that was affected the most significantly by the changes...

And really, the kits have nothing to do with in-shift prices for anything other than Avian meat. However, they have certainly leveled out the high end old resources...

So, on my server, the only people buying any harvestable resources are the chefs and BEs. The armorsmiths all have so much hide that they don't know what to do with it (and our best-ever hide, 400+ days old, can't even be sold for 100 cpu anymore...), and the docs are in the same position with Avian meat (in reality, I've used 1 kit on avian meat, and that's probably all I will use -- I have to do something with the 800k units of Avian meat I was sitting on when the kits came out, after all...).

It all works together -- the continued surplus of extractable and harvestable resources, the kits, the harvesting changes -- to slowly reduce the number of things that crafters have to buy, to reduce their dependence on outside help, and to stagnate the economy.

This was already happening, simply because there is an order of magnitude more resources coming in than going out, but these changes have all accelerated the process... To me, the fact that my income and expenditures havelined up so nicely is an indication of what was a fairly efficient economic system, one with multiple levels, and the possibility of income at all of them.

Now -- and I can only speak from my experience -- it is entirely too easy for a large-scale crafter to supply his or her own needs, without ever making any large-scale outside expenditures. And *that* is a sure sign of something seriously wrong.

In the Devs' effort to reduce the barriers to entry for new crafters, I believe that they've inadvertently destroyed a number of formerly viable mechanisms for newer players to earn money.

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Poldano wrote:

I agree that bank accounts are effectively a money sink. However, they were not so regarded by developers a year ago.

As a crafter, I like to keep a large amount of money on hand. 10 million is bare minimum for some crafting professions. For one, it is a form of "energy" that can act as both rubber-band and lever; rubber-band for buffering against rapid changes in the economy, lever for getting things done quickly when necessary. For another, I have been poor both in-game and real-life, and I don't like it at all.

I think the main problem with accounts nearing the cap is that the game has no way of expressing the kind of influence that should represent.

Saego Kennar, Wanderhome

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Milgram wrote:

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Starcloud wrote:

And what happens when the resource kits become rare enough that you're only finding them for sale at thirty million credits?

Relying on resource kits to give you all the resources you need may work in the short term... in the long term, it's not a sustainable option.

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Also, what happens when a current shift of meat is available for the hunting at 100 cpu? Makes your 400 cpu deeds look a little impractical. Your competition is getting their supplies much, much cheeper than you are.

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I have yet to see a resource kit sell for over 4 mil on Valcyn... My average price is under 3 mil, so under 100 cpu. Given that the last time I offered under 100 cpu for a shift of meat I had almost no response (and that there is only about a .01% chance of something better than our current best spawning), I'm pretty confident that my competition is not getting their supplies cheaper than I am.

If the deeds were 400 cpu, they would very obviously have less of an effect on the economy. However, I don't see them evergetting anywhere near that high...

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Ledao wrote:

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Milgram wrote:

Ya, 400 cpu is defenently very high. I don't quite know what i was thinking. I guess somehow converted 4 million for 10k resources.

On Kettemoor, resource deeds go for about 4-4.5 million. If you want meat hunted, at 30-50 cpu, you will get 500k of it. at 60-80 cpu, stop buying when you run out of money. Your money will stop long before the meat does.

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Meat, yes -- Avian meat, no...

A few totals from my meat buys before the kits came out:

A 250 cpu shift -- 500k units
A 150 cpu shift -- 300-400k units
A 100 cpu shift -- 100k units
An 80 cpu shift -- Under 30k units

Avian meat is a special case, of course, but it is also the case that was affected the most significantly by the changes...

And really, the kits have nothing to do with in-shift prices for anything other than Avian meat. However, they have certainly leveled out the high end old resources...

So, on my server, the only people buying any harvestable resources are the chefs and BEs. The armorsmiths all have so much hide that they don't know what to do with it (and our best-ever hide, 400+ days old, can't even be sold for 100 cpu anymore...), and the docs are in the same position with Avian meat (in reality, I've used 1 kit on avian meat, and that's probably all I will use -- I have to do something with the 800k units of Avian meat I was sitting on when the kits came out, after all...).

It all works together -- the continued surplus of extractable and harvestable resources, the kits, the harvesting changes -- to slowly reduce the number of things that crafters have to buy, to reduce their dependence on outside help, and to stagnate the economy.

This was already happening, simply because there is an order of magnitude more resources coming in than going out, but these changes have all accelerated the process... To me, the fact that my income and expenditures havelined up so nicely is an indication of what was a fairly efficient economic system, one with multiple levels, and the possibility of income at all of them.

Now -- and I can only speak from my experience -- it is entirely too easy for a large-scale crafter to supply his or her own needs, without ever making any large-scale outside expenditures. And *that* is a sure sign of something seriously wrong.

In the Devs' effort to reduce the barriers to entry for new crafters, I believe that they've inadvertently destroyed a number of formerly viable mechanisms for newer players to earn money.

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I think the reason i dont agree with you is that our def. of "Large scale crafter" differs significantly.

When i was a Doc and CM i could get all the resources I needed with the help of my guild and just a minimal number of hunters on nice avain spawns probably not averageing 200k a day resoruce outflows.

However when I think large scale i think Nhims on Bloodfin (my alt server) or SoroSuub when my 2 business partners and I had top 2 or 3 market share in Food, Meds, Buffs, Armor, Resoruces, and Weapons. On just my part of that i was spending 5-10mil a day on resources.

There is simply not enough the in the day or lots avalible to dream on harvesting enough resources to support any of the truely large crafting organizations in house

Message Edited by Ciirybeccaskyr on 03-23-2005 09:48 AM