Business And Economy Archive
Thread: Proposal for New Structure Ranch, and Economic and Game Benefits
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BleuDestiny
Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:08 pm
#1
Structure Name: Ranch
Size: 1 Lot
Type: Factory
Schematic: DNA Sample from Bio Engineer
Inputs: Power, Maintenance, and Cereal (as Feed)
Outputs: Meat, Hide, or Bone from creature sampled
Features:
- Produces meat, hide, or bone as an alternative, supplement, or replacement to hunting
- Provides means for crafters who are not combat professions to obtain needed resources, without reliance on Hunters
- Provides means for players who are not combat professions to acquire and sell resources as a source of income
- Provides economic balance through alternatives to acquiring meat, bone, and hides, so that buyers are not compelled to pay 100+ cpu as a sole source of needed resources; no monopolies by combat classes, choices are introduced to supply chain
- Results in lower prices of creature resources in the market, and lower prices of finished goods that result from creature resources
- Provides economic activity for Bio Engineers
- Provides economic activity for Architects
- Provides economic balance currently favoring combat classes
- Out put is equivalent to current classes of harvesters (extraction rates)
- Hopper production ceases when creature spawn ceases, similar to harvesters
- Hopper production ceases if any of power, maintenance, or cereal resources (1:1 ratio cereal:creature resource output) runs out
Marjaliisa
Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:12 pm
#2
- Remove Ranger from game
As a tailor, I'd like to see this, but it would make Ranger/Scout a somewhat pointless class
Jagged-F3l
Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:23 pm
#3
This proposal will never be adopted. The devs are trying to push things the other direction. For example, Shipwrights have very limited factory support. The primary reason devs gave us for this during beta was to prevent guilds and other large organizations from dominating the ship market. Your proposal runs smack in the face of this. Give a player the ability to crank out nearly unlimited quantities of organic resources based on a DNA template. While chefs, tailors, doctors and CMs would love this, it wouldn't take long for the "big guy" (i.e., the player back by large organizations of players, like guilds, and have nearly limitless access to resources) to squeeze out the "little guy" (i.e., the "one man show", casual gamer).
Crizis
Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:29 pm
#4
*****
Times are changing. Devs are reversing themselves to make the game more accessible, more enjoyable, less prep time. I can see this happening now. Maybe not as little as a month ago, but the Devs are waking up and reversing their long-standing sacred cows. Speaking of cows, I love the idea of ranches to bring balance and accessibility to the game economy.
Rogue1970
Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:44 pm
#5
Well written - but it will never happen until they make Scout/Ranger skills non skill point based. How about your rewrite the proposal with some ideas on how to remove Scout/Ranger professions without making the skills/benefits obsolete? (Sorry Rangers, I have little hope that your 'Revamp' is high on the list of priorities for the Devs, they seem to prefer making you obsolete so far....)
As nearly useless as these skill hog professions are now though, a definate possibility. Every single benefit of the two professions except tracking can be accomplished with merely Novice Scout, as it is now. Harvest droids - harvest as a Master Ranger, Foods to increase Terrain Negotiation, stims/foods for maskscent, call your droid/pet/mount without a camp (just wait 15sec), etc....
Heck - you can track anyone who has you on their friends list too (without Ranger)- now, how do you think I could go about getting NPCs to think of me as their friends? 
For the sake of discussion - a few things popped in my head just now.....
I would like to see something like this in the game, but not to dramatically lower the prices of resources. I'd prefer it supplemented them. While 500cpu for Rori avian is a bit much, 20-40cpu for harvested resources is not too much for the effort, it's some people's sole source of income. There has to be a balance, and it should cost a minimum of 20cpu to run a 'Ranch' at 100% concentration spots, maybe 40cputo run it at 50% concentration.
Removing the 'need' for scout/ranger is a catch-22 too, as it is a major roleplaying part of the game and the source of many people's enjoyment.
Maybe a better approach is to make 'Ranch's' ONLY usable by Scouts/Rangers? The 'harvest bonus' they accumulate as a Scout/Ranger would be applied to the 'Ranch's' they own, sorta likeBER onharvesters. Admin should only be granted to the 'owner' but hopper access could go to anyone (prevents 'ranch' lot swaps), but lets your alt pick the meat up when he needs it. This reduces the cost of goods by increasing the supply without harming the hunters, as they could benefit by placing their own ranches.
I really like the requirement you had to have a 'sample' of DNA be required to identify what it produces - neat idea to keep BE's integrated and out there 'sampling' again, as it's becoming a lost art due to the complexity of making pets.
BleuDestiny
Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:49 pm
#6
I don't believe it impacts the scout, which is really saying it impacts hunters. It brings balance to the hunter monopoly in the supply chain. It's an alternative choice, a supplement, not a replacement. Even if I were ranching meat or hide, I'd still very much purchase it from hunters if the price were more reasonable. I'd take the meat and hide from all channels. Nobody is replaced, they're balanced.
SioBabble
Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:04 pm
#7
One of the things about creature resources is that they must, must, MUST be harvested by hand. You cannot just plant a harv and get herbivore meat or leathery hide or avian bone. You must play the game to get these resources. You cannot go do something else, your character must be physically (as it were) there harvesting the creatures. These resources are labor intensive by design.
This cannot change without major disruptions to the economy.
Rangers and scouts (indicates self) will scream to the heavens.
Gruug
Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:10 pm
#8
Why don't we just put down a bunch of frogs a la Test Center and let anyone get any items they want or need from them. C'mon now! There is a economy out there that is interdependent upon other professions to work. If you need a particular resouce, make a deal with someone to provide you with what you need. It can include trading for either credits and/or services as any basic economy should be. Why do you want to basically have stuff"given" to you? As a Bounty Hunter why don't I just ask the dev's to let me make my own weapons, driods and armor? Why? Because I depend upon other to do it for me plain and simple.
Ledao
Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:49 pm
#9
BleuDestiny wrote:
I don't believe it impacts the scout, which is really saying it impacts hunters. It brings balance to the hunter monopoly in the supply chain. It's an alternative choice, a supplement, not a replacement. Even if I were ranching meat or hide, I'd still very much purchase it from hunters if the price were more reasonable. I'd take the meat and hide from all channels. Nobody is replaced, they're balanced.
There is not, was not, and cannot ever be a "hunter monopoly in the supply chain", for the simple reason that the harvested resources themselves are completely useless to the hunters. If no one's buying, they're out of luck, aren't they?
Further, the premise on which this idea is based -- viz. that there is a greater demand for creature resources than the scout and ranger community is able to meet -- is also quite false.
Ask around -- you'll find that most large crafters have at least a 6 month supply of all the creature resources they use.
If you really have a problem paying 100+ cpu for creature resources, you'd be much better served by complaining about mission payouts, loot drop rates, and how much money can be made in JTL -- for those are the primary determinants of creature resource prices. If someone can make more money running Janta missions than hunting whatever resource I want (as well as have the chance of looting something that might be worth a couple million credits), what do you think they're going to do?
BleuDestiny
Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:45 pm
#10
LOL, those are some weak arguments. Back to the proposal, and real pros and cons... let it rip. Every other resource in the game is attainable by any profession, its called a harvester. Except meat, hide, and bone. The only way to produce enough tocraft with, when combined with the other harvested resources (which seem to somehow work in the economydespite the aboveweak arguments), is to buy from many many peeps. There should be alternatives tothis just like ANY OTHER RESOURCE. LOL. Look at the greater good of thegame. Armor sets, buff sets, food crates, everything we use every day need not have 5, 6, or 7 zeros in it's price tag, making for a ludicrouscircus of an economy. Givethe idea some objective and thoughtful consideration. Get on out of that box and think about the potential for the game overall.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 01-26-2005 06:51 PM
Ledao
Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:12 pm
#11
BleuDestiny wrote:
LOL, those are some weak arguments. Back to the proposal, and real pros and cons... let it rip. Every other resource in the game is attainable by any profession, its called a harvester. Except meat, hide, and bone. The only way to produce enough tocraft with, when combined with the other harvested resources (which seem to somehow work in the economydespite the aboveweak arguments), is to buy from many many peeps. There should be alternatives tothis just like ANY OTHER RESOURCE. LOL. Look at the greater good of thegame. Armor sets, buff sets, food crates, everything we use every day need not have 5, 6, or 7 zeros in it's price tag, making for a ludicrouscircus of an economy. Givethe idea some objective and thoughtful consideration. Get on out of that box and think about the potential for the game overall.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 01-26-2005 06:51 PM
The point -- that you're either missing or ignoring -- is that creature resourcesare the limiting factor in production; withoutsuch limitationthere would be no economy at all.
A Doc, for instance, can only produce as many enhance packs as he or she has Avian meat for -- the avian meat is the limiting factor. Without this limitation (or, if you prefer, assuming that Avian meat could behad at a comparable rate to other extractable resources), the market would flood immediately, and crafters would go out of business...
But I won't just assert that, I'll give you an example: If enhance packs either didn't require Avian meat, or if it could be produced as you specify above, I would have just as much Avian meat as Fiberplast, Lokian Wheat, and the other assorted things that I use in high volume. Based on my present inventory levels, and what I know of the server's economy, I'd guess that I could single-handedly supply EVERY SINGLE MED ON THE SERVER for a period of about 3 years.
Yes, prices would drop. But the overall economy would be destroyed, as it would become not only possible, but even easy for a single person on each server to dominate whichever crafting market they wish, for as long as they wish to do so.
To your "weak arguments" comment, in the two threads that you've created on this issue, I have not seen you present a single argument for the necessity, or even viability, of your idea. You have asserted that "prices are too high" and that "hunters have a monopoly on creature resources",and have made no attempt that I cansee tosubstantiate either premise.
And, finally, to your "produce enough to craft with" comment: that isjust not true. In one buff session, with a toon with a 4th-tier novice combat skill, anyone can get enough Avian meat to make 350 or 400 buffpacks. If you aren't selling 'em on a vendor, that would take most people 6 months to use. For that matter, I'm still using a batch of buffpacks that I made for myself (with meat that I harvested myself) in November -- of 2003. The only people that should be paying forcreature resorucesare those who intend to sell the resulting product. (and this -- of course -- does not apply merely to avian meat...)
Message Edited by Ledao on 01-26-2005 07:49 PM
Phaelyn
Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:36 am
#12
Ledao wrote:
BleuDestiny wrote:
LOL, those are some weak arguments. Back to the proposal, and real pros and cons... let it rip. Every other resource in the game is attainable by any profession, its called a harvester. Except meat, hide, and bone. The only way to produce enough tocraft with, when combined with the other harvested resources (which seem to somehow work in the economydespite the aboveweak arguments), is to buy from many many peeps. There should be alternatives tothis just like ANY OTHER RESOURCE. LOL. Look at the greater good of thegame. Armor sets, buff sets, food crates, everything we use every day need not have 5, 6, or 7 zeros in it's price tag, making for a ludicrouscircus of an economy. Givethe idea some objective and thoughtful consideration. Get on out of that box and think about the potential for the game overall.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 01-26-2005 06:51 PM
- BIG SNIP -
To your "weak arguments" comment, in the two threads that you've created on this issue, I have not seen you present a single argument for the necessity, or even viability, of your idea. You have asserted that "prices are too high" and that "hunters have a monopoly on creature resources",and have made no attempt that I cansee tosubstantiate either premise.
Not to troll, but I tried pointing this out in the previous thread, and got soundly told I was wrong on 2 points. I asserted that it wasn't the Hunters but the Crafters that created the price disparity. For some reason, some buffpack makers cling to the hope that by outbidding everyone else, they will get all of the resource. Problem with that is, as I pointed out, that it is essentially an Unlimited market. True, Spawns have a set duration, but even with that limitation millions of units could be harvested. Once buffpack makers realize that if they all refused to pay 200 - 250cpu for the product, the market would settle to a lower level. It's not as if the Hunter goes out and hunts, and then holds a pack over a buff maker's head and says "Pay me 250cpu or I destroy this stack" - Quite the opposite. The hunters generally see a Spam at a certain CPU for a certain named resource, or they see it on the forums. They think to themsleves "Hmmm - 250cpu - i'll harvest that for a while". The same would be true if the offer was 50cpu across the board. On the Radiant trade forums, a good spawn was under way, and one maker plead for his fellows not to drive the price above 180, to stop there and make it market price. Know what happened? Someone bid it up to 300 eventually, and that became market price, forcing all the others to match or not get their meat. Did the hunters make that happen? (Meanwhile, our Guild at the time was giving the same resource to our Doc for only 20cpu. Once he got enough, he said to sell to others for profit)
As far as the idea being viable - I could actually see a form of it working. However, it would need to be very immersive, and very restricted in order to not eliminate the need for hunters. Not just 1 or 2 professions to build and or operate, but many. And definitely not a set BER like the Harvesters - Some Dev would have to sit down and calculate what a single hunter couldrealistically harvest in aspawn period at an average playing time per day, and base final output on that number. Using the BER as it stands now,just 20 - 30Ranches operating at BER 4would generate MILLIONS of units in excess resources. result: Market dies completely, and Hunters are a thing of the past.
And, finally, to your "produce enough to craft with" comment: that isjust not true. In one buff session, with a toon with a 4th-tier novice combat skill, anyone can get enough Avian meat to make 350 or 400 buffpacks. If you aren't selling 'em on a vendor, that would take most people 6 months to use. For that matter, I'm still using a batch of buffpacks that I made for myself (with meat that I harvested myself) in November -- of 2003. The only people that should be paying forcreature resorucesare those who intend to sell the resulting product. (and this -- of course -- does not apply merely to avian meat...)
And I'll bet at that time, there was no price disparity, so final costs were drastically lower as well.
Message Edited by Ledao on 01-26-2005 07:49 PM
Happymob
Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:30 am
#13
If we need more creature resources, a better solution is to make the creature harvesting skill make more of a difference. Keep the harvesting levels the same at novice scout, but ramp it up much faster, allowing a master ranger to harvest 5 or 10times (rather than 2 times) as much as a novice scout. In this way, the crafter still gets more meat (and more meat will drive down the per unit price) and we actually enhance an under-developed elite profession rather than hurt it.
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