Business And Economy Archive

Thread: Six Characters in Search of a Player: The Problems of an Alt-Based Economy

PoetDancer
Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:49 pm
#1




This is a repost from the Core Systems Profession board. I felt it deserves to be posted here as a topic in its own right.


We have seen many individuals come forward and proclaim they are cancelling their account. But what strikes me and many others I am sure is the sheer volume of account purchases that are just now being revealed. The rhetorical strategy is understandable. If an individual ispaying upwards of$150 or more for ten or more accounts, then it stands to reason that the individual should be taken more seriously than the rest, at least from their perspective. But in truth, is the ownership and prevalence of multiple account holders an indication of what is right with this game, or what is wrong with it?


Not all subscriptions are of the same value. For example, $15 a month from a disruptive and abusive player is more of a liability than an asset, if that individual causes many players who equally pay $15 a month to cancel or leave. I am not saying all multiple account subscribers are abusive. What I am saying though is that a player who pays double the subscription fee is not automatically worth double the game play value to a simulation such as this one.


It is my belief that the prevalence of a large number of multiple account users is not a sign that this game is successful.


It is a sign that this game suffers from major, fundamental flaws, and is unsuccessful.


If the game truly represents what it claims to represent, then an individual should be able to find satisfaction in this game with one account; givinga subscriberten characters in ten galaxies. Individual players should not need extra accounts to have a worthwhile game experience. And while one always considers the personal motivations of wanting to gain an advantage, it is a sign of bad design as well to make the advantage so extreme in many cases that it strips all motivations to play in any chosen profession.


When multiple account holders make themselves apparent in large numbers, and even boast of the fact, then it is a sign that we are no longer supporting a vision of individual players in an interdependent system. It is a sign that the player economy is a conglomeration of single "prime" characters with an entourageof auxiliary characters who serve no greater purpose than to serve the "prime" character.


Take entertainers for example. The ability to generate the entire functions and placeof the entertainer player, while at the same time exploring other aspects of play with a main character creates an eroding effect. The unattended mule "serves" players that would normally need a real player to do, reducing the need for players to fill in the "niche." Why have players do vital functions at all if non-players from multiple account users can do the functions?


Take smugglers as second instances for a weaponsmith or armoursmith, who serve no greater purpose than to slice the weapons and armour of the prime character.


Take "base crackers," or characters that serve no greater purpose than to mule skill points to destroy a base single handedly.


Take crafters. What can we say for a crafter who does not need to do anything else but sit in a room running experiments in clothing that is provided by a main character?


What all these character types share is that theyhave no motivation or independent status oftheir own.They aremerely an appendage of another character. And yetthey cannot help butinfluence the economy in just as strong of a sense as the single account player. Indeed,they have a greater impact, becausethey havetheunqualified talents of all the other characters in a player's entourageavailable when needed.


What results is a slow degradation of the player base. While revenue may still be the same from a financial perspective, actual "players" decrease in number. Galaxies that perhaps could boast of a population of 5000 players playing 5000 characters become galaxies with 2500 players playing 5000 characters. It is the same revenue, but half the number of actual players.


There are things that are just as valuable--if not more valuable--than subscription fees to a game like this one. An account alone cannot get its friends to play, nor can it group, nor can work together with other players to eliminate a base, nor create new opportunities to engage in collaborative efforts of any sort that requires activity and roleplay. Onlyplayers can do that. And when we start to substitute ornamental accessory characters to supply our individual, guild, and city needs, the result is fewer opportunities for actual players to add to the galaxy, engage in the economic life of the galaxy,or promote the galaxy to their friends.


The fact that so many individuals argue so strongly that they simply cannot function in this game unless they have access to unattended accounts to buff them, log-as-needed accounts to create goods, and the use of auxiliary character slots to leverage lot trades is not a sign that this game is working on a fundamental level. It is a sign that there is something deeply and seriously wrong. It is also dangerous, because when the multi account gamer does leave--for whatever reason--he or she createsa vacuum that is rather difficult, if not impossible to fill.


In my opinion, this game needs more players, not more characters.


If gaining more players means initially losing more accounts from multi account users, then it is a short-term loss that is necessary for a long-term growth, and a sustainable product.


One satisfied player's $15is worth much, muchmore to SOE than the extra $15 for a second instance. That one player provides not only $15 a month, but content for all the other players. And the result is that the play becomes rich, fun,sustainable over time, and infectious.


Entourages of alt characters, whilethey facilitate content for a single player or a small group of players, oftentimes cannot help but provide it at the expense of all the rest--especially new players. I would go so far as to say that the $15 extra that is gained from a multi account subscriber is actually more of a failure than a success from a marketing and financial standpoint.SOE only gets $15 a month, not another content provider.


Buffbots do not bring players into the game. Crafting alts in looted clothes do not either. Neither do "base crackers" provide for an exciting GCW and PvP. They only sustain the players that are already here, and in a way that is ultimately less than satisfactory compared to a galaxy filled with independent actors all pursuing their own interests. 15 million in account fees from one million players, 500,000 players, or 250,000 playersis not the same.


Because one million players paying $15 a monthare one million potential group mates, one million potential sales for armour and weapons, and one million players who may get their friends and family involved.


15 million in account fees from 500,000 players is half the players paying twice as much for half the potential fun.


250,000 players paying $60 a month is still 15 million, but now they are paying four times as much for one quarter of the potential fun that can be had. And with each new account that is purchased on top of the previous one, it gives brand new players that much less of an incentive to stay past their 30 day trial subscription, gives long term players that much less of a reason to stay, and even gives multiple account subscribers that much less of an incentive to justify the added expense.


No. Money isn't everything. And while the revenue from multiple accounts is indeed significant, if the game facilitates the purchase of multiple accounts as an almostde facto requirement, then it is an indication of shrinking economic viability, not robust viability.


The rhetoric of the Combat Upgrade brougt up statements of, "I have canceled my six accounts." To finances, it is $90 US Dollars a month. But to game play, the loss is but one economic actor.


But how many actors have we lost as a game over the last two years on account of that one economic actor who happened to pay six times as much? Perhaps we may never fully know. Perhaps it is too late to gain new players, only new accounts. And perhaps the loss of the sixaccount player will disrupt the game in a serious,irreparable manner, just as he or she said it would.


That is the ultimate problem we face as a game. Not a lack of characters. A lack of players behind them.

Message Edited by PoetDancer on 04-26-2005 10:05 PM



Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."
bluejanus
Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:53 pm
#2

The game seemed to be moving away from interdependency. Perhaps this is different for combat characters in the CU, but SW was a step in the other direction. The 30k resource kits were a step in the other direction.





Isander Aperin - Kettemoor Master Architect (home: Serenity, Naboo)
Structures vendor in the HorkCo Shop near Coronet, Corellia (CLOSED)
Structures vendors in the Mos Mesric Mall near Mos Espa, Tatooine (CLOSED)
Structures, jedi kit, crafting station and resource vendors in Serenity near Kaadara, Naboo (CLOSED)
Smart_Darwin
Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:08 pm
#3

Interesting post and I agree with you on a number of issues. However, I can't say what you discuss is evidence of a deeply flawed game. Quite the contrary, multiple account holders are proof positive that SOE has created something remarkable! I can't imagine paying for 6 accounts every month, but a journey though these forums suggests this practice is not that uncommon. Nobody pays more cash for something that's broken; they stop paying for something that broken. Variance ni the amount people are willing to pay for this service is an indication of variance in percieved value. Indeed, 13 clams a month is the minimum percived value for this service.


What this phenomenon does clearly communicate is the nature of the user of this service. SOE never encouraged anyone to purchase multiple accounts. If memory serves, they discouraged it in the beginning. Indeed, obtaining multiple accountsis still more difficult to do that it could be. All the constraints of the single account were features of the game... it is the rules of a game that make it interesting, assuming everyone is subject to the same rules. How exciting would poker be if you got to select any card you wanted to play? Players in this community decided that it was ok to go around the limitations of the game designers. We are in effect enableing economic "god mode" every time we activate a new toon... this is not the sign of a flawed game, it is the sign of a flawed player.



Success is not sufficient; others must fail.
BaccaLaurean
Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:18 am
#4

So if I understand correctly from Poet's post, the assumption is that the game is flawed because the constraints of the game encourage players to work around the basic game systems ( lots, limited skill points, etc. ) to then acquire ancillary characters which support a "prime" character. The game is unsuccessful because it forces players to go outside single account to achieve satisfaction?


I definitely agree that players have gone around the system designed to create interdependencies betweencharacters by creating multiple instances of the same player ( i.e different characters / same server on different accounts ) who then can accomplish a wide range of tasks necessary to "succeed" in the game. There is interdependency, still, but it's within a controlled system of characters maintained by a single player. I think the reason why players have done this is due to the relative difficulty in finding and working with other players who keep complimentary skills / profs / interests upon which a player might rely. Yet there is something bigger at work here.



What is unique about SWG when compared to other MMOs? The Player Economy. Why are players spending so much Real Life money to accomplish their in-gamegoals by maintaining multi-accounts? Why do so many players establishDynastic Character Groups of alt characters with enormous capacity? This mightbe called theGreed Factor.


The drive for financial success is high precisely because the game rewards so minimally ( from a financial standpoint ) the various quests and tasks of the game itself. In order to function at a basic level, and then subsequently higher levels, a player much continunally find revenue streams and then acquire from other playersthe armor, weapons, buffs, and other elements they need to continue to play. In a game where the "biggest and baddest" is simply the par for the course, that means achieving extreme prosperity.



A look at the economic landscape of the game shows new players that they have to figure out a means of more than just financial survival. Players invariably go through a series of "experiments" where they try to make credits from missions, then maybe crafting, then maybe try and get some loot to sell. Invariably they find a few ways that work, but come upon the fundamental limitations of a single character. With a single account and single character, there just is no way to "compete" in a player economy where armor, weapons, buffs ( med crafting ), and also food are so highly commoditized and simultaneously lucrative.


The solution: Maintain a Crafting Character ( with merchant ) to manufacture and sell high-end commodities, while also maintaining a Combat Character to access the high-end content which generates the even more lucrative loot. To "compete" at an even higher level, maintain multiple crafting characters who can specialize in key commodities: weapons / armor / medical supplies or some combination thereof, while maintaining support characters like Ranger/Scout ( raw materials ) and Combat Character(s) to access various types of content to which the skill template is uniquely tailored. Factoring in lots allowed ( and keeping houses, etc. to a minimum ) these Dynastic Character Groups can maintain an additional 15 - 25 lots for harvestors to extract resources which fuel the Crafting Characters and also bring a handsome price in the Player Economy.


The end result of maintaining several accounts with same-server characters is exactly what we see today: individual characters with bank accounts of hundreds of millions of credits, and collective Dynasty Character Groups with more loot, high-end weapons/armor/equipment, and real estate than an single character could ever hope to accumulate. The Greed Factor in SWG really kicks in when the typical MMO player disregards the possibility of creating a "dynasty" of unique players in favor of maintaining these Dynastic Character Groups which allow and perpetuate their "success" in the game.


Can a player who ( after 12 to 24 months and 3 to 6 character accounts on the same server ) has taken these "extreme" measures towards financial prosperity within the game and the player economy in a large sense be deemed to be "successful"? In the sense that "success" is measured by achieving freedom from the economic pressure of the Player Economy, then these players have absolutely been succesful. Are players satisfied with this dynamic?


So back to the question: Are these game flaws? Does the Player Economy of SWG engender this kind of competition and thus lower-quality player interaction in favor of individual personal "success"?






























Pawlin
Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:32 pm
#5






SharperMind wrote:
You do realize, that one account with a single player having fun doesn't mean more to SOE, they care about that $15 a month, the total amount of money the day the CU hits for SOE will be close to 10 million a year with nearly 25,000 players leaving and taking their alts with them. Which means, small galaxies just got that much smaller, ....




Where did you get the 25k number from?


I doubt SOE would ever publish a figure if they had one and I can't imagine anyone else would have any real data on how many accounts would be cancelled.





Pawlin Construction of Kettemoor.
Harvesters and Crafting stations - Triad Coronet Mall just outside Coronet (-177 -5490)
Architect, House, Furniture, Harvester FAQ

Oprolan the Wookiee of Sunrunner. Cheap resources W. Daeric Talus (-639 -3058)
"Worst FF ever *thumbsdown*" -- Pawlin fan club
"I am not going to win Miss Congeniality again this year in the Senate." -- John McCain


** Please refer to Elyssa's answer
SharperMind
Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:03 pm
#6

Its probably more then 25k people actually, there is about 100k active members of the game, aprox 300k registered forum members, but a lot of them died off and don't play the game anymore, and by the numbers I have gathered from server forums, and some lil math my friends did based on the signatures all over the forum, its quite a few.

Most likely more then half of the members of the game will leave, and the number of people who join won't make up for the number thats lost all cause of one stupid patch, I would rather have new ways to move furniture in a house rather then this combat upgrade.



The Dark Code Leader
Arnat Pavlo - Sunrunner
Ibon Pavlo - Sunrunner
Jedi Resource Vendor (Vendor: Loot Vendor and Resource Kits): 1739, -4986 - Tatooine, Outside Travelers Respite

y

- Put this in your profile if you or someone you know is fighting, has survived,
or has died in a pokemon battle.

SharperMind
Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:17 am
#7

You do realize, that one account with a single player having fun doesn't mean more to SOE, they care about that $15 a month, the total amount of money the day the CU hits for SOE will be close to 10 million a year with nearly 25,000 players leaving and taking their alts with them. Which means, small galaxies just got that much smaller, and the game doesn't have 1 million players fyi.. its like 100k or so, and then they got like 6 alts, its rediculous.

I say that we just saw the end of SWG, there may still be people playing it, but the population is already low enough, and we just lost even more.

The devs said that we would see a turn around, and they didn't do it for a lot of us, they lied and they just lost my money, and I had only one account, I had fun, for whatever period I was playing, I spent 90 days playing on my current character, and now its 90 days I wish I had gotten back.

I suggest that the Devs allow for small servers to be put up without the CU taking effect, but they would never do it, why? It would be more work for them, and they hate work, they take too long to do everything, and when they do release something its crap, its utter crap, day 1 of any release is bugged to hell, and they take forever to fix things, I saw bugs from launch being fixed not but a few weeks ago, they know about these bugs, but they take so long to do anything about them.

Me and 24,999 other people are going to be looking for another game, and WoW, SWG's main competition just got me hooked, if not FoM is my new one, and FoM is free!

Well, thats what I gotta say, try not to flame, all in all you understand that I think the devs are a little bit too late, they tried, but it was another over hyped, over promoted failure, we protested change because we were afraid of it and how it would turn our game upside down and make it like all the rest, another MMORPG with the same control style, interface, and all around feel. What we had has been lost, thanks but maybe I will be back once the Devs recognize their mistake and give the community the answer we deserve, cancel the CU! We weren't losing people for reasons other then the CU. The devs could easily have given us the new armor types (not chaning current config of it) and then add in the new weps and the other misc crap, and not changed the interface to now... utter crap, and the controls are messed, like come on! You killed SWG, congrats, SOE go back to EQ2, Tiggs bite me, suspend me, ban me, do whatever, SWG is dead, go home everyone, go back to what you normally do, and the people that do remain after the CU hits, will be such a small number that others will get frustrated and just leave themselves. Soon enough server populations will be under 1000 registered characters per server, with even fewer active, and then ontop of that, Bria and Ahazi will be just under 2000 or so, with less then 1000 active. Its going to be wanderhome 24/7 across all servers, and once the CU hits, i think wanderhome may go bye bye regardless, it wouldn't be cost effective to keep the server up if there are only 100 players on it.

Well BYE everyone, I think we lost our chances for a good game, the Devs didn't consider everything, they simply didn't listen to the community and now its back to day 1 of SWG all over again, see you in 2 years if things get better again.

Message Edited by SharperMind on 04-27-2005 03:18 PM



The Dark Code Leader
Arnat Pavlo - Sunrunner
Ibon Pavlo - Sunrunner
Jedi Resource Vendor (Vendor: Loot Vendor and Resource Kits): 1739, -4986 - Tatooine, Outside Travelers Respite

y

- Put this in your profile if you or someone you know is fighting, has survived,
or has died in a pokemon battle.

Pawlin
Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:25 am
#8

We don't even know exactly how many active players and accounts there are.


Its all just guesswork and speculation. So its just one opinion versus another.


I highly doubt 50% of the people will leave. Lots of people won't follow through with the threat to quit. Just because people signed a peition against CU as it is doesn't mean they'll quit over CU.





Pawlin Construction of Kettemoor.
Harvesters and Crafting stations - Triad Coronet Mall just outside Coronet (-177 -5490)
Architect, House, Furniture, Harvester FAQ

Oprolan the Wookiee of Sunrunner. Cheap resources W. Daeric Talus (-639 -3058)
"Worst FF ever *thumbsdown*" -- Pawlin fan club
"I am not going to win Miss Congeniality again this year in the Senate." -- John McCain


** Please refer to Elyssa's answer
SpacePunk
Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:42 pm
#9

That's all true in a 'game theory', naive, pot-bellied GMsort of way, but to SOE it's a matter of money. Yes, more players make the game better, but less accounts make SOE poorer. The fact that people have more than one account reflects a definate lack of character growth, not player skill.





-----------------
Jarioth
Flurry

Han shot first!
May the farce be with you!
NGE=SWG:BOHICA EDITION!
Get on the Falcon kid, this game is gonna blow!
kordeth4
Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:18 am
#10

I dont know why everyone thinks that multiple accounts are motivated by just greed or trying to support the "main" charactor..........personally i have multiple accounts and i have assigned some of the servers i play on too be family units each with differing personalities and goals...i also have servers where i dont bring my toons together and they all live and function in different spots on the server.. i even have a server where i built a business out of my charactors........and its not even a successful business


Mainly what i am trying to say is that in my quest for roleplaying and "playing a role" i must have different roles too play and it mirrors my RL as i play roleplaying games as a gamemaster most of the time so please stop trying to say that all people that buy multiple accounts are greedy or support centered and personally i feel that all my charactors i use have interactive and fulfilling RP experiances and i can give a womprats posterior about the CU ruining fighting most of my charactors hardly fight anyhow too busy trying to roleplay than fight


Kordeth


Being of Many Galaxies


Eunuya
Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:46 pm
#11

PoetDancer has it suitably eloquently.


When I first signed on in '03, the multiple-account player was a strange and fantastic thing reserved for those who neither worked nor studied, but simply lived their lives in SWG. As time passed and more people began to look to themselves for support by purchasing multiple accounts, the atmosphere of excitement and discovery faded far faster than my exploration of the game warranted. Soon no one could recommend crafters and groups went from an organized troop of friends to a motley crew of strangers to a mysterious nonentity (the solo group). Eventually the only players still interested in being social while playing were the esteemable entertainers, and far too often the cantinas seemed to be filled with no one but the infamous buffbots.


The problems we have when it comes to not enjoying the game do not so much stem from our interfaces or our combat system as from a growing discomfort among players to interact and rely on one another. Perhaps it is that people are afraid of being taken for a fool and cheated by someone looking to make an exorbitantprofit from their crafted goods. Perhaps they simply are tired of trying to make new friends and acquaintances only to see them leave. However, every time we solo a mission or craft our own goods we raise the biggest hurdle to enjoying this game. By not contributing to the social strength of our community, we are contributing to its demise.




_________________________________________________________
"I think the most important reason to be getting married is that you have a perfecty chance of making a hero who would change the poor country to a rich country." -- 3rd Grade Student
cl0kwerq
Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:09 pm
#12

first....who was the original poster of it? Was it you Poet?


Anywho, I think you got this one right on the money. I don't agree with all aspects of your essay, but the main theme about a fundamentally flawed environment is compelling.


In my opinion (dangerous words, I know) players should be free to play in a way that suits them, while not having limited access to any content, save those that are profession specific. Before it was not easy to run a successful business and go out on the town a-whoopin' some butt. Now, it's not even pheasable. For those of us who enjoy different dynamics of the game, and also playing with the people we have come to like and consider friends, multiple-accounts is the only option to being able to fulfill the more creative aspects of our characters and also the pure fun of playing bash-bash games. I was satisfied with the 2 accounts, if that's what was called for. However a creative character is not totally limited by the limiting game system which was implemented. People came up with the mining business. No professions attached to it, but any serious business character knows of at least one miner. In a sense it's the non-combat portion of the scout/ranger dynamic. They have become essential to the in game economy as any "real" profession. But why the developers don't take this as a cue that perhaps adding another profession would be appropriate is unknown to me. They obviously poses the capability to make fundamental core changes to the game, so why focus on something that most people didn't consider broken in the first place?


I appreciate the opinion of the GM's. They have a lot of experience in making games fun for they people who play them, but they also only cater to a very specific crowd, and that crowd doesn't really get mad if the game's a bit too hard, since they can just throw the dice at the GM and have done with it. The only balance in the game should be "is it fun?" vs. "is it a challenge?". All else is politics.


As the original poster goes on, the core of the game is in fact flawed. If it wasn't, and greed isn't an issue, then why would anyone ever want more than one account? The answer is simply that people with multiple accounts want to play the game to their specific design, and they can use multiple accounts to allow themselves to access content that was not meant for one player to be able to access, and thus the flaw becomes clear. Some people want to be able to do something without having to deal with other people. If you've ever been in a group then you know it is extrememly hard to find people who are 1)Trustworthy, and 2)Not annoying to you. This is the main impetus of wanting to play in a solo-environment, which would seem to point to a lack of a fun player base, but actually points to a lack of ability to get away from the things that you dislike, which is why people are cancelling accounts. It isn't that it's a horrible game, or even all of the bugs. It's being forced into a playstyle which was avoided completely in the first place.


I'll stop there, but I want to end with this: When you start telling people theyhave to play in a specific manner, then you are losing that aspect of the game that made it what it is, creativity. Once you remove people's ability to play the game in a new way you will make a stagnant game that only die-hards will stick around for. And there will be die-hards that no matter what is done to the game will stick around because they consider the ability to "adjust" to forced changes a positive quality. I don't know if it is, but I certainly don't pay a subscription to a magazine that continually insults my intelligence and way of life, I don't pay the cable company for channels I don't want or care about, and I don't play games that I don't have fun with however I may choose to play them. That's not a threat, it's just me, a concerned customer voicing their opinion. If I don't feel as though my concerns are answered, then I will discontinue to be a customer, and gladly lose my right to comment on the situation.



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bolonstones
Sun May 01, 2005 6:51 am
#13

QUICK FIX.


CRAFTING SHOULD BE LIKE PILOT SKILLS. FREE TO LEARN IF YOU WANT THEM


ALL CAN ENJOY COMBAT


ALL CAN CRAFT AND ADD QUALITY TO THE GAME


I have been a swordsmaster/AS for a long time. Its taken me an age to get a phenomal swordsman without getting brawler etc. But its possible.


What you say about multiplayer accounts leaving crafts is true. I will leave a vacuum in the Armoursmith trade, my other 3 toons are also cancelled and my 1 focus is now combat.


I love to craft. Cant get a decent combat character because ofsword nerf


Have been running multiple toons because i wanted to acheive on 1 server, not 10.






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