Business And Economy Archive
Thread: Debunking the Resource Cost Myth
bluejanus wrote:
StressLess wrote:
Kinshi wrote:
Let us not forget the most important formula of all in determing what it coust to harvest resources.
Time = Money
[...]
Actually, since this is a game ALL time would be considered leisure and wouldn't have a credit value associated with it.
About the only costs the original poster on this thread didn't take into account was the cost of redeeding the harvesters to move them when the spawn is depleted. Of course, the longer the spawn the less per unit it costs to redeed the harvester.
You're nuts if you don't think my leisure time doesn't have any value. Just because it's a game for entertainment that doesn't negate the value of your time.
Value to YOU maybe, but not to me or to any of your customers - they would just go buy from someone else. The key is that you don't HAVE to be doing this, it's completely, totally by choice. Leisure time...
Phaelyn wrote:
IceTigger wrote:
Prehaps the your time is not as worth as much asothers are willing to pay. This is an old post, but nothing has changed. Oh wait, we are not paying maintence on harvasters now. Resource prices have not gone down.
Fact: Direct out of pocket expenses for getting all resources is low.
Fiction: "My time is more valuable then your time so I should be paid more."
Why would Sales prices go down because a temporary measure is in place? All lowering prices short term would do is create an Uproar when they reverse the short term change, and prices returned to "normal".
In real life, all time is leisure time. All a wage does is set a price on leisure time--in other words you trade your leisure time for money.The time you give up to work is an opportunity cost. There aretime-based opportunity costs in game (harvesting resources vs. blowing up lairs as fast as you can, operating your own mines rather than buying from someone else, etc.) The mere act of buying from a vendor rather than repeccing to a crafter every time you need an item is literally associating credit value with leisure time.
StressLess wrote:
Actually, since this is a game ALL time would be considered leisure and wouldn't have a credit value associated with it.
GraySeven wrote:
All Harvesters, both power and resource, use the following formula to determine the number of units per day extracted:
BER (Basic Extraction Rate) * 1440 * Density Percentage = Units Per Day
Ex. A BER 13 Heavy Harvester on a 60% site comes out to 13 * 1440 * .6 = 11232 units per day
This formula can also be found on the Architect forum FAQ.
- A 14 BER Fusion on an 80% Density will harvest 16128 power a day
- A Fusion Harvester Costs 1440 credits a day to operate
- The cost per unit is 1440/16128 = .08 credits per unit of fusion power
For the sake of this example, our Power has a PE (potential energy) rating of 500 which gives us a 1 power per unit of resource
- A 13 BER Heavy Mineral Harvester on an 80% Density will Harvest 14976 units per day
- Heavy Harvester cost 2160 credits per day and take 1800 units of energy per day
- 1800 units of energy cost 144 credits meaning it costs 2304 credits per day
- The cost per unit is 2304/14976 = .154 credit per unit of resource
Even on a 40% site, the cost per unit of resource is lower than .4 cpu even if you are using Fusion Power pulled from a 40% site. To reach a cost of 1 cpu, you would have to be using a Heavy Harvester on a 12% site (assuming an 80% Fusion Site Power)
If you are a resource reseller, then you can also figure in the cost of your storefront and vendor maintenance, but this is aslippery cost to nail down simply because the time it takes you to sell a resource is totally independant of your actions.
Power can be a bit more difficult. Instead of selling by the resource unit, you could sell by the PE, allowing you more credits for higher PE radioactives because the buyer is buying units of Power, not resource. This rewards those who seek out high PE radioactives to harvest.
What this points out is the simple fact that the cost to harvest a resource rarely if ever has any bearing on the actual cost of the resource. What tends to influence the price of resources most are two things:
- Quality- Resource spawns with statistics in the 750 and up range are more in demand as they allow the crafting of quality items, but not all craftables are dependant on statistics.
- Rarity- Some resource types that are required by name for high-level crafting spawn at a lower rate than regular resoures. Things like Tolium Gas (Droid Detonation Modules) andKiirium Steel (Composite Armor) may be out of spawn longer than resources not called for by name in a crafting schematic. And HQ resources that have been out of spawn for a considerable time also have the rarity factor.
The actual cost of resources is often much, much lower than the cost placed upon them by supply and demand.
One cost that the poster missed in his explanation and I haven't seen anyone mention.
The cost of retrieving your harvesters should also be included.
DrElJefeMD wrote:
GraySeven wrote:
All Harvesters, both power and resource, use the following formula to determine the number of units per day extracted:
BER (Basic Extraction Rate) * 1440 * Density Percentage = Units Per Day
Ex. A BER 13 Heavy Harvester on a 60% site comes out to 13 * 1440 * .6 = 11232 units per day
This formula can also be found on the Architect forum FAQ.
- A 14 BER Fusion on an 80% Density will harvest 16128 power a day
- A Fusion Harvester Costs 1440 credits a day to operate
- The cost per unit is 1440/16128 = .08 credits per unit of fusion power
For the sake of this example, our Power has a PE (potential energy) rating of 500 which gives us a 1 power per unit of resource
- A 13 BER Heavy Mineral Harvester on an 80% Density will Harvest 14976 units per day
- Heavy Harvester cost 2160 credits per day and take 1800 units of energy per day
- 1800 units of energy cost 144 credits meaning it costs 2304 credits per day
- The cost per unit is 2304/14976 = .154 credit per unit of resource
Even on a 40% site, the cost per unit of resource is lower than .4 cpu even if you are using Fusion Power pulled from a 40% site. To reach a cost of 1 cpu, you would have to be using a Heavy Harvester on a 12% site (assuming an 80% Fusion Site Power)
If you are a resource reseller, then you can also figure in the cost of your storefront and vendor maintenance, but this is aslippery cost to nail down simply because the time it takes you to sell a resource is totally independant of your actions.
Power can be a bit more difficult. Instead of selling by the resource unit, you could sell by the PE, allowing you more credits for higher PE radioactives because the buyer is buying units of Power, not resource. This rewards those who seek out high PE radioactives to harvest.
What this points out is the simple fact that the cost to harvest a resource rarely if ever has any bearing on the actual cost of the resource. What tends to influence the price of resources most are two things:
- Quality- Resource spawns with statistics in the 750 and up range are more in demand as they allow the crafting of quality items, but not all craftables are dependant on statistics.
- Rarity- Some resource types that are required by name for high-level crafting spawn at a lower rate than regular resoures. Things like Tolium Gas (Droid Detonation Modules) andKiirium Steel (Composite Armor) may be out of spawn longer than resources not called for by name in a crafting schematic. And HQ resources that have been out of spawn for a considerable time also have the rarity factor.
The actual cost of resources is often much, much lower than the cost placed upon them by supply and demand.
Here's a thought. IF YOU THINK MY PRICES ARE TOO HIGH ....... DON"T BUY FROM ME
I cannot force you, and you are in no way compelled to, purchase from me. In fact, all you have to do is go buy some harvestors and drop them on the resource spawns you want, in the quantities you need.
Here's the rub though. By the time you buy all the harvestors, spend time gathering the power, then spend the hours surveying for the best spots and then take the time to maintain those harvestors, move them to the next spawn etc. etc. etc. you will find that you haven't had time to play the game you wanted and bought to play. That is why you pay someone else to do it. So what you are really paying for when you buy that 3 cpu resource is 2.7 cpu for the players TIME who mined it.
So unless you are willing to go into the mining profession, stop bitching about everyone elses prices.
Regards
Where did he say you charge too much, I didnt see you mentioned anywhere in the post. All he is saying is that absing prices off of the cost of resoruces is a myth... people base the prices on what the market will bare, at least that is waht Ihave seen.
Phaelyn wrote:
GraySeven wrote:
The entire post took around 8 minutes, including the time to visit the Architect forum for the formula and read the formula explaination.This wasn't about figuring in "percieved costs" such as time spent in game, but the actual "out of pocket" expenses. It costs you zero credits to go to a harvester to put in maintenance and power, or to survey and place harvesters. This is just a full explaination of the amount of credits you have to spend to harvest a given unit of resource.
The portion highlighted is not exactly correct. You do not factor any of the following into your equations, and they ARE out of pocket costs tthat are accrued directly by the player:
- If you use a vehicle, you are placing wear and tear on said vehicle. Depending on it's type and %, this could add anywhere from 100 to 1000 credits or more, dependant upon the distance travelled. You also if on an "adventure" planet could incur a full loss of vehicle due to attack, further raising the cost.
- If harvesters are not on the current planet, you must add cost of travel tickets, assuming you do not have JTL.
- You may cut down vehicle costs by using shuttle - in that case, ticket cost must be factored in.
Those are costs directly tied into the harvesting of resources from machinery. Indirect costs not factored are safety - You may need to be placing/retrieving in a dangerous environment. So cost of medical equipment *may* be a factor - although I assume them to be a loss leader. Other possible indirect costs:
- Bazaar fees
- Mall fees (If you are in such an arrangement)
It's not so cut and dry as "Run and place harvester, input maint and power, and sit back and wait" - There ARE more factors that can be added into the equation. Does it add much? No, not really. But it debunks your Resource cost method, as it does NOT reflect all possible costs.
Assume a one week run for one harvester. Place harv, check it 2 days later, check it 2 days after that, check and deed the harv 3 days after that. (which is about the most I'll check my harvs)
cost of harv per day, 2304 * 7 = 16128
Shuttle from home to starport, ~700 round trip * 4 = 2800
Starship from home planet to where the harvs are, I forget these costs, 3000 round trip? * 4 = 12000
Shuttle from starport to nearby shuttleport, ~700 round trip * 4 = 2800
vehicle repair - I never pay attention to this cost! 1000 each trip? * 4 = 4000
Food while driving, again I don't look at cost... 2000 each trip? * 4 = 8000
cost to destroy the harvestor, 1500.
costs: 36428cr
on an 80% spawn, you've gathered 14976 * 7 = 104,832u
36428 / 104832 = 0.35 cpu.
Run 2 harvs:
cost of harv per day, 2304 * 7 * 2= 32256
Shuttle from home to starport, 2800 same
Starship from home planet to where the harvs are 12000 same
Shuttle from starport to nearby shuttleport 2800 same
vehicle repair 4000 same
Food while driving 8000 same
cost to destroy the harvestors, 1500 * 2 = 3000
costs: 64856cr
on an 80% spawn, you've gathered 14976 * 7 * 2= 209664u
64856 / 209664 = 0.31 cpu.
and so on...
With a few more harvs, you're down to about 0.2cpu to pull it from the ground...
So many variables.... More runs, or fewer... longer spawn... drive into a pack of rancors and get stuck on a log... but even adding 6k cloning and insurance fees only adds ~ 0.1cpu in the first example, ~0.05cpu in the second.
What are vendor costs? 8credits per hour? so 192 credits per day * 7 = 1344
I'm in a mall, I pay no housing maintenance. Small house, 16 credits per hours * 7 = 2688.
One week, you've paid 4k for that vendor.
for 104k of resources from 1 harv, that averages to another 0.038cpu.
As for death while surveying (I don't!, vehicle costs, (another couple grand) we're talking more chump change...
Don't forget to pick the harvesters up...that'll run you a bit. I'm also thinking that you'll probably have multiple trips for maintenance. All of that is really moot though. If a person asks me to harvest something for them, they'd better be willing to compensate me for doing it.
What is illustrated; a great way for crafters to cut down on their costs and pass those savings onto the customers. Of course that means a far more limited supply. 2 lots used up for the small house means no more than 8 harvesters running. Maybe it will last you long enough until the next spawn, maybe not.
This is a very important point to make, because not all resoruces are equal... I am still using a spawn of polysteel copper(ynesa) that was server best that hasn't spawned for a year, maybe 18 months. This is now only able to be gotten through resource deeds and resource deeds sell for 150 cpu+ Who cares if I ahve 1 million+ polysteel copper that spawned a week ago or that when I collected the Ynesa It only cost me 0.01 cpu... this stuff is definalty worth more than that now, and no way am I going to lose credits just by making a gun out of it. I have a good 50 million resources that I have harvested ... out of that 50 million I only use a small protion of it because, the vast majority of it is no longer the best I have, and I only craft with the best resources.
mistereous1 wrote:
Don't forget to pick the harvesters up...that'll run you a bit. I'm also thinking that you'll probably have multiple trips for maintenance. All of that is really moot though. If a person asks me to harvest something for them, they'd better be willing to compensate me for doing it.
What is illustrated; a great way for crafters to cut down on their costs and pass those savings onto the customers. Of course that means a far more limited supply. 2 lots used up for the small house means no more than 8 harvesters running. Maybe it will last you long enough until the next spawn, maybe not.
And of course that takes the view of all resources being equal. I may have an oil wellin my back yard and it doesn't cost me a thing to just pump it out of the ground...that doesn't mean that I should givegive gasaway does it? Point being resources are worth more than the cost associated with mining them.
welcome to a free market.