Business And Economy Archive
Thread: JTL & Shipwright Here Yesterday, Gone Tomorrow
BleuDestiny wrote:On the particular subject of storage, it has been stated in one-on-one discussions with CSR's that SOE did not like mega-crafters, big production, and that's why there were only 10 lots, and storage limits, they wanted always, in all things, to constrain the gameplay and the game economy. It was a driving factor in all things.
Hehe, the thread has morphed from SW to general crafting. But it's good to see I'm not the only one pulling my hair out.
We're not asking for unlimited storage.
Just enough to play our profession.....
God knows I don't want crafting to become an idiots game. Certain things are SUPPOSED to be hard or everyone and their sister would do them instead of dedicated players. And in my opinion we're already heading down the road to ruin with some of the more 'whinish' changes they've recently made.
I don't know about 3000 items (one profession? or two or three?) but none of the crafters I know can do their work (crafting) using only one structure.
We usually need 1 or 2 just for storage - per profession. And I'm not talking about really heavy industrialization either - given that this all takes place "a long, long time ago".
But here's an idea:
Remove the artificial item/lot cap and let us use the structures as they were intended from the begining.
Right now the most efficient storage solution is the small house. And that just makes the hassle that much worse running back and forth. This might have just shifted a little with the recent increase, but not much.
And it's the most immersive experience walking into a huge PA hall only to find one room in the whole entire place that's able to be decorated with the cap in place.
It's one thing to constrain a game system to encourage interaction and force players to make decisions.
It's another thing to enforce true tedium.
P.S.
You want to remove millions of items from the game? Remove vendors for players that no longer hold any Merchant skills.
BleuDestiny wrote:
I don't know of a currently producing Shipwright, and I'm about to drop my shipwright profession with a new template design. It was a collosal waste of time. JTL itself seems to have died an early death. The profession of Shipwright was a hollow and unenjoyable experience, on a level unlike any other crafting profession I have played.
Observations:
- Shipwright took far too many resources to grind, and takes far too many resources to maintain, too many to store (with storage so obscenely limited,) was a hog, is a hog, takes too much effort in harvesting and acquiring resources
- Ships do not decay and do not need replacement
- A crafting profession that does not allow a player to make great stuff, is no fun
- Quality resources are non-existant, month after month of garbage spawns
- Unlike other professions' components, a shipwrights components' stats are spread out, for example, 25%/25%/25%/25% with no stat leading the quality
- Lack of quality differentiation in experimenting
- RE'ing is a quagmire of storage problems (ie. storage continues to be a major source of grief for players who also craft), is a quagmire of too much work for too little reward. We've had players who have never, after thousands, and thousands of RE'ing, have gotten a single whole set of Firespray discs. It's work with no payoff
- Sales of parts and sales of RE parts is non-existant; most people who are still flying just collect various parts and have a shipwright RE them ready to go in their own tool. The shipwright has simply become a person who gets a /tell that says, "hey i've got 10 parts, can you RE them for me? Where can we meet?"
- Though the devs have done many things to reduce prep time in the game, to speed up people's ability to get out there and enjoy the game, they still haven't done enough, including all the busy work around storage management, and people don't have time or interest in JTL. It's already being reduced to a means to travel quickly between starport. Of all the JTL enabled peeps in our guild, I think 3 still fly. Most have not flown in a LONG time.
- SOE says "the ground based game and the space game are separate," and recent words from SOE around theGCW indicate that they're going to be merged into a seamless experience. OK, so currently shipwright crafting xp doesn't count towards FS, when will that be remedied in fairness to the shipwright, a crafting profession like any other?
If something were done about the economics and enjoyment of being a shipwright, maybe more would keep it, or work it, but its already become just another broken profession. As it is, the ground-based profession and the space-based professions, shipwright and pilot respectively, are DOA.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 02-22-2005 09:13 AM
Lets look a bit at your points;
- JTL has died - If true, it is because many players ground out master pilot (of their given faction) rather than play the game. I don't see it as true since my sales have actually gone up over the past month or so, but this may be due to players like you that give it up.
- SW takes too many resources - I was an armorsmith before JTL and for me storage was more of an issue then than it is now.
- Ships don't decay - This is one point I have to agree with you on. Ships should wear out more than they do and need fixed/replaced more often. As an all crafter (with pilot skils) I've had to repair my speeder/swoop more often than my ship chassis' since JTL launched.
- Not allowed to make great stuff - Every time I craft I am surprised at an unexpected quality result. Can you make an uber ship item as you can armor (for example)? Not really, but the devs have already made clear that uber armor such as we've see in game since launch was not fully intended,
- RE'ing is a quagmire - I specialize in stocking RE'd components on my vendors, and actually only craft player made components as ordered. I buy looted components from players and off the bazaar (when I see them priced well). I have a system that I've developed to manage my inventory (from my armorsmith days actually).
- As for Kuat disks, I RE in batches and when I do a batch I RE 100+ components each time (not all level 1's BTW). Evey time I do this I get at least 1 disk, sometimes more. I think I have gotten 2 just in the last 3 or 4 days.
- Sales non-existant - I disagree, my sales have gone up. In the last month I've had to add a second location.
- Dev issues- This is not limited to SW, and I have seen many improvements to the game in the last month, so I feel confident that they will some issues for SW's.
- SW xpconvertion to FS xp - This is a complaint I've heard a lot, usually from people who see "grinding" chassis as a quick way to jedi. I hope they don't do this, because then we will see even bigger resource farms, worse quality chassis flooding the market, and even more people "grinding" there way to jedi.
Are there SW issues I would like to see fixed, of course, and the same can be said for other prof's. Except for the Firespray (because it is a "rare" item, I sell all my chassis at 1 cpu and make a profit. Am I a billionaire from it, nope. But I am a currently producing shipwright on Eclipse, contrary to your inital observation.
I'm not going to try to talk you into remaining SW, by all means quit. The more players give it up the better I will do.
Anywho, glad your experiences are better.
Stikjok wrote:
BleuDestiny wrote:
Lets look a bit at your points;
- RE'ing is a quagmire - I specialize in stocking RE'd components on my vendors, and actually only craft player made components as ordered. I buy looted components from players and off the bazaar (when I see them priced well). I have a system that I've developed to manage my inventory (from my armorsmith days actually).
- I had a system too, including both purchased and guild-collected loot, so I was passing thru a large-scale quantity of goods, in fact, I probably lost about $15 million from all the parts bought, that once RE'd, would not sell, they just kept recycling through the vendor "auction unsuccessful" a few times till I deleted them, and we're in a highly trafficed vendor zone, different experiences for different players or servers I guess. All in all, lost millions of credits on the venture.
- As for Kuat disks, I RE in batches and when I do a batch I RE 100+ components each time (not all level 1's BTW). Evey time I do this I get at least 1 disk, sometimes more. I think I have gotten 2 just in the last 3 or 4 days.
- I would do 500-1,000 in a batch, large scale, all in all, millions invested, got about 9 disks, only 5 of which were not redundant, never got a full schematic, total loss of millions, again.
- Sales non-existant - I disagree, my sales have gone up. In the last month I've had to add a second location.
- Not around here, glad your experience is better
- Dev issues- This is not limited to SW, and I have seen many improvements to the game in the last month, so I feel confident that they will some issues for SW's.
- In all things, loot issues should be balanced with minimums and maybe maximums, such that if you RE thousands of items, some measure kicks in and delivers a freaking disc, or if you kill billions of black suns, some measure kicks in and delivers a good loot; the variability of loot drop that rains heavens on some players and desimates others in terms of time, repairs, and cost, is unbalanced.
My absolute favorite thing was flying my Decimator with two gunners, an Ops, and a couple of fighter escorts. But I got burned to death so many times by unstoppable plasma fires that I stopped.
Each patch seemed to have some notice about "fixed plasma leak bug" that I don't believe it is ever really fixed. So I don't fly.
Oh well
O.
Finally, my advice to you is simple. If you're not having fun in the game, then change what you are doing. However, don't whine about the decisions you have made. Try to take something positive from it and move on. It took me a while to find my niche in the game; that is,a place where I can have fun. However, I'm not wasting my time whining about the time I spent exploring other professions.
BleuDestiny wrote:
I don't know of a currently producing Shipwright, and I'm about to drop my shipwright profession with a new template design. It was a collosal waste of time. JTL itself seems to have died an early death. The profession of Shipwright was a hollow and unenjoyable experience, on a level unlike any other crafting profession I have played.
I have to disagree with this statement strongly. While my business isn't bringing in millions a week anymore, I hada realistic outlook from the beginning that at some point revenues would level off, independent of the reasons. Realistically speaking, I don't think Shipwright differs much from Architect and Droid Engineer. In fact, I think that a Shipwright is better off due to the number of consumables that they can craft (i.e., paint and texture kits, repair kits, countermeasure packs, and missile packs).
Observations:
- Shipwright took far too many resources to grind, and takes far too many resources to maintain, too many to store (with storage so obscenely limited,) was a hog, is a hog, takes too much effort in harvesting and acquiring resources
Yes, a Shipwright requires a lot of resources. However, Shipwright has some distinct advantages over comparable professions (e.g., Architect and Droid Engineer).
First, the resource requirements are general in nature. For example, schematics call for Steel, and not Ditanium Steel. Of course, the exception is upgrade components, which require "JTL resources". However, the devs have shown us love by giving us a spawn of these resources constantly since JTL went live.
Second, the schematics don't call for sub-components upon sub-components, such as a majority of worthwhile schematics available to Architects and Droid Engineers. If you don't add an upgrade component, the crafting of a ship component is relatively straightforward. And let's not forget that upgrade components can be made in a factory.
- Ships do not decay and do not need replacement
I don't completely understand whether ships decay. In fact, I do believe they do. However, I can say with great certainity that armor does decay. In fact, I can't keep armor plates stocked on my vendor. In addition, the use of some pilot commands and droid commands can cause decay or even destruction of components, such as the shield generator.
- A crafting profession that does not allow a player to make great stuff, is no fun
- Quality resources are non-existant, month after month of garbage spawns
I don't know about your server, but we have seen relatively spectular resources on Chilastra. In fact, I have resources that allow me to experiment to nearly 100% on just about most stats of any component.
- Unlike other professions' components, a shipwrights components' stats are spread out, for example, 25%/25%/25%/25% with no stat leading the quality
So, what exactly is the problem?
- Lack of quality differentiation in experimenting
This point I have to strongly disagree on. Without revealing my own trade secrets, many of my customers buy weapons from me because I have differentiated them from others.
- RE'ing is a quagmire of storage problems (ie. storage continues to be a major source of grief for players who also craft), is a quagmire of too much work for too little reward. We've had players who have never, after thousands, and thousands of RE'ing, have gotten a single whole set of Firespray discs. It's work with no payoff
I personally have not RE'd components as a means of boycotting looted components. The devs always told us that they would never give us loot that would hurt crafters or the player economy, and I saw looted ship components flying smack in the face of this philosophy.
- Sales of parts and sales of RE parts is non-existant; most people who are still flying just collect various parts and have a shipwright RE them ready to go in their own tool. The shipwright has simply become a person who gets a /tell that says, "hey i've got 10 parts, can you RE them for me? Where can we meet?"
Sales of ship components? My sales have been pretty good. I probably sell an average of 500K of ship components a week.
Sales of RE components? Gave up on this a long time ago. I already talked about my personal "boycott" of RE components. However, I found that the components that sold were the components that I was crafting.
RE requests? Very rare.
- Though the devs have done many things to reduce prep time in the game, to speed up people's ability to get out there and enjoy the game, they still haven't done enough, including all the busy work around storage management, and people don't have time or interest in JTL. It's already being reduced to a means to travel quickly between starport. Of all the JTL enabled peeps in our guild, I think 3 still fly. Most have not flown in a LONG time.
I will not disagree that the space aspect of the game needs some love. However, a lot of my customers still enjoy flying, and use it as a means of makings credits in the game. My view is that the fundamentals of the space aspect of the game are sound. However, the space aspect of the game is immature and will evolve.
- SOE says "the ground based game and the space game are separate," and recent words from SOE around theGCW indicate that they're going to be merged into a seamless experience. OK, so currently shipwright crafting xp doesn't count towards FS, when will that be remedied in fairness to the shipwright, a crafting profession like any other?
SOE claimed that the ground and space games are seperate at the time JTL was released. They elaborated that it would not always be this case, that they would take steps (over time) to better integrate JTL into the ground game.
If something were done about the economics and enjoyment of being a shipwright, maybe more would keep it, or work it, but its already become just another broken profession. As it is, the ground-based profession and the space-based professions, shipwright and pilot respectively, are DOA.
I don't agree with this statement. There are players that just plain enjoy flying. As far as the economics of Shipwright is concerned, they're tough. However, let's keep this in perspective--this is a game, and the credits you make in game will not help you in real life. I'm happy if I break even, my customers are happy, and I'm having fun.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 02-22-2005 09:13 AM
its not a presumptuous viewpoint at all, when SW 1st can out ppl did it to make fast money as ppl would want the ships, comps etc asap to try out the new features in space... any profs point is to make money one way or another and new profs will make cash very quickly at the start, then slow down as SW is doing, and a lot of the Shipwrights are jumping ship now, I know of 3 myself
BleuDestiny wrote:
That's a pretty presumptuous viewpoint. First of all, why would anyone think they'd make a quick fortune? Anyone actually grinding and working SW knows better than that, right? Where does that thought even come from? I'm a meds crafter by history, and meds aint no picnic. I certainly wasn't in it for a quick buck, I have meds for that LOL. I don't know anyone of the many SW's that were in it for the buck. It was supposed to be a fun crafting profession, in as much as any crafting profession is fun; ie. labor of love.
Well... uh... thanks for the input.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 02-22-2005 01:27 PM
Jagged-F3l wrote:
I was a Shipwright for a couple months during JTL beta and have been a Shipwright since JTL went live. I find some of your observations to be accurate, but some of them are off-base and I would like to provide a response (below in yellow).
Finally, my advice to you is simple. If you're not having fun in the game, then change what you are doing. However, don't whine about the decisions you have made. Try to take something positive from it and move on. It took me a while to find my niche in the game; that is,a place where I can have fun. However, I'm not wasting my time whining about the time I spent exploring other professions.
I skimmed over a lot of what you wrote, and found that alot of it was opinion and sometimes server-specific. I was going to respond to them up until I got to the end and saw the "whiner" derrogatory garbage, so I'll not respond after all. End of discussion.
Bleue, Proud Whiner of the SWG Empire, longtime member of Advocacy for Whiners, Winner of Whiner of the Year 2004, proudly serving the SWG universe for 1.5 years, as the whiners who have been the catalyst for change in SWG. Without Whiners, the game would be dead and largely unmodified from day one. Thank God for whiners.
BleuDestiny wrote:
Jagged-F3l wrote:
I was a Shipwright for a couple months during JTL beta and have been a Shipwright since JTL went live. I find some of your observations to be accurate, but some of them are off-base and I would like to provide a response (below in yellow).
Finally, my advice to you is simple. If you're not having fun in the game, then change what you are doing. However, don't whine about the decisions you have made. Try to take something positive from it and move on. It took me a while to find my niche in the game; that is,a place where I can have fun. However, I'm not wasting my time whining about the time I spent exploring other professions.
I skimmed over a lot of what you wrote, and found that alot of it was opinion and sometimes server-specific. I was going to respond to them up until I got to the end and saw the "whiner" derrogatory garbage, so I'll not respond after all. End of discussion.
Bleue, Proud Whiner of the SWG Empire, longtime member of Advocacy for Whiners, Winner of Whiner of the Year 2004, proudly serving the SWG universe for 1.5 years, as the whiners who have been the catalyst for change in SWG. Without Whiners, the game would be dead and largely unmodified from day one. Thank God for whiners.
I believe that a single response I made was specific to the server I play on, and that was in regard to resources. After checking the resource database on swgcraft.com, I found that Flurry has offered up some reasonable resources in the last five months, not to mention the two months before that (I started collecting resources for Shipwright at least six weeks before JTL went live).
Most of the rest of what I wrote was based on fact, not opinion (as you have claimed). However, I am beginning to understand that may not be able to discern a difference.
Finally, I would like to leave you with my opinions regarding whiners (which you believe is derrogatory, but turn around and claim to be proud of--sarcasm? stupidity?). Whiners have not been the catalyst for change in this game. Why do you believe that SOE would spend the resources to execute change based on whining, which in my experience is little more than subjective non-sense without substantial fact to serve as a basis. I see plenty of players whining about the devs taking away solo group hunting, but you don't see the devs putting it back. If a single one of these lazy game spoilers actually sat down and tried to express their viewpoint in an objective manner with fact to back it up, the devs might take notice. However, reality has it that most whiners viewpoint is purely subjective asa result of a severe emotional response to some aspect of the game that they don't think has been fair to them. The devs aren't listening to whining. My advice is go find mama, because she's probably the only that will give you something for it--sympathy, maybe.
Puertoriqueno wrote:
I would like to post what I wrote a while back, from the perspective of a newcomer to JTL...
Ok, first, New in here, so some things may or may not have been covered or mentioned before. I just want to add my two cents from an "SWG veteran but new to JTL" point of view.
First, I wanted to explain why I stopped playing JTL so soon after I started. Now, I love it, dont get me wrong........very fun, exciting, visually pleasing, so this is not a rant. This is the reason I set it down and went back to the planet.
I might also mention that......being I was new........I used the base Scyk. I found the whole customizing idea to confusing for now. Again, not a complaint, it is great, but I wanted into the action.
1) Autopilot. Is there one? Looked through the manual, maybe I missed it. The runs between missions points were WAY too long.
Yes, there is an auto-pilot. I will sympathize with you regarding the manual. However, this game is far too dynamic to depend on hardcopy manuals. You should have asked someone in the Pilot forum.
2) Lock-on. Not fun. Very hard to pick a target, hard to cycle through targets, especially when using the joystick to do so. I would often have to wait for someone to shoot at me to target them, and that did not work when you have three aggressors on you.
Never had a problem with this. You really should spend some time figuring out the commands that yield the most desirable results. Yes, there are a lot of commands, but that gives players the flexibility to suit their own needs. Once you have found the commands that best suit your needs, bind them to the various buttons and controls on your joystick.
By the way, if you were flying around in a Scyk and only had 1/1/1/1 skills, you should probably not have been flying in space that would cause you to be attacked by TIE Aggressors. This represents the equivalent of attacking a Graul Mauler with Novice Brawler skills.
3) Escort or Squadron leader missions early on very irritating.....note I said irritating, I know they should be hard, but to have a situation so early that causes you to spend 30 minutes (perhaps an exaggeration) trying to fend off attackers or kill one single ship only to lose the mission because you took to long is not a good way to start off.
No, you aren't exaggerating. My first escort mission lasted 45 minutes. These missions can be nerve wracking. SOE was going for the X-wing vs. TIE Fighter experience with these missions. Some of them are fun, some of them are intended to teach you patience with the stick. Being a pilot can be best described as long periods of boredom dotted with brief moments of terror and excitement.
4) A huge amount of loot that APPEARED worthless....again, as a new person, especially with the newbie ship, it seemed to have no use. Purchased a base scyk, found out that out of all of my loot, only two pieces could be used in the ship. Again, IMHO, not a good way to start.
Personally I think the whole space loot system and RE'ing runs smack in the face of the devs long standing philosophy that loot should never hurt crafters or the player economy. Initially, the loot was frequently excellent, and this hurt Shipwrights. However, over time I noticed that loot drop frequency fell off, and eventually excellent loot became rare, so I didn't mind so much, as a Shipwright.
5) No big Imp/Reb battles to watch, or Star Destroyers in orbit (was hoping to see this one), etc etc.
No, the fun battles are waiting for you in the sectors that you can't even enter until you have acquired the skills.
6) No way to board or explore stations. This one was a disappointment......dont get me wrong, I know that can take alot of development, but why not use the base station that is used for newbies when they first start the game and just change it up slightly, have a few npcs, and give it a light ground-like content.......mission guys, entertainment areas, hospitals, bazaar just for space. Perhaps some quests can involve people on the stations. Just a thought........
Many were disappointed by this, but when you consider the vastness of what JTL brought to the game, the disappointment shouldgo away. Many hope that this will be something the devs will add in the future. However, I don't think the space game is going to see much love until the ground game gets some first.
Anyway, this is what caused me to stop training in pilot before I had even trained the first set of boxes and go back to the ground game. Now I use the ships to travel from planet to planet. I am sure this is not what was intended.
You should continue your quest to master pilot. You will find some of the more nerve wracking missions easier with a friend. If you hate the grind, fly with a friend with a YT-1300 and man the quads--the XP poors in. And read the Pilot forum, there's a lot of good help in there.
Concerning travel, I think the devs intended it as a benefit for those that purchased JTL.
I just wanted to start with that. Remember, I love this addition, I just would like to see something to grab new guys and hold them.
Next, I would like to talk about uniforms, specifically the rebel uniforms. I noticed that the X-wing and B-wing helmuts are not available to rebels. Seems to me this is something that should have been in place from day one.
Rebels receive "uniforms" as rewards for high-level quests. Personally, I think this sucks considering the fact that Imperials receive their pressure suit and helmet in first tier quests.
Finally, planets........I know you cant make Hoth and Coruscant playable planets, but can you at least make them ones we can visit in space?
Hoth? Wrong timeframe.
Coruscant? Even in space the lag would be unacceptable. Consider all the traffic in the Coruscant system, not to mention the vast number of stations, satellites, and military emplacements.
I doubt that you have fully explored the sectors the devs have given you (in fact, I know you haven't), but your asking for more. Does this seem reasonable?
Thanks for your time, and feel free to pick this apart.
It was a good addition, but I play it rarely for the reasons listed above.
Jagged-F3l wrote:
BleuDestiny wrote:
Jagged-F3l wrote:
I was a Shipwright for a couple months during JTL beta and have been a Shipwright since JTL went live. I find some of your observations to be accurate, but some of them are off-base and I would like to provide a response (below in yellow).
Finally, my advice to you is simple. If you're not having fun in the game, then change what you are doing. However, don't whine about the decisions you have made. Try to take something positive from it and move on. It took me a while to find my niche in the game; that is,a place where I can have fun. However, I'm not wasting my time whining about the time I spent exploring other professions.
I skimmed over a lot of what you wrote, and found that alot of it was opinion and sometimes server-specific. I was going to respond to them up until I got to the end and saw the "whiner" derrogatory garbage, so I'll not respond after all. End of discussion.
Bleue, Proud Whiner of the SWG Empire, longtime member of Advocacy for Whiners, Winner of Whiner of the Year 2004, proudly serving the SWG universe for 1.5 years, as the whiners who have been the catalyst for change in SWG. Without Whiners, the game would be dead and largely unmodified from day one. Thank God for whiners.
I believe that a single response I made was specific to the server I play on, and that was in regard to resources. After checking the resource database on swgcraft.com, I found that Flurry has offered up some reasonable resources in the last five months, not to mention the two months before that (I started collecting resources for Shipwright at least six weeks before JTL went live).
Most of the rest of what I wrote was based on fact, not opinion (as you have claimed). However, I am beginning to understand that may not be able to discern a difference.
Finally, I would like to leave you with my opinions regarding whiners (which you believe is derrogatory, but turn around and claim to be proud of--sarcasm? stupidity?). Whiners have not been the catalyst for change in this game. Why do you believe that SOE would spend the resources to execute change based on whining, which in my experience is little more than subjective non-sense without substantial fact to serve as a basis. I see plenty of players whining about the devs taking away solo group hunting, but you don't see the devs putting it back. If a single one of these lazy game spoilers actually sat down and tried to express their viewpoint in an objective manner with fact to back it up, the devs might take notice. However, reality has it that most whiners viewpoint is purely subjective asa result of a severe emotional response to some aspect of the game that they don't think has been fair to them. The devs aren't listening to whining. My advice is go find mama, because she's probably the only that will give you something for it--sympathy, maybe.
Your rants and personal attacks are as constructive to the community as the derrogatory whiner characterization.
As for momma, I'm wise enough to have a wife and kid, the latter is proly older than you based upon your behavior, given that she's old enough to drive, and I'm wise enough to bethe chief executive,1st in line to the top,of a large bank. While I appreciate your personal attacks, they're proly as far off as your other observations. I'd address them when you raise the bar on your feedback, drop the attacks, and deal with issues honestly, and until then, I'll choose not to.
As for whining, I'm not proud of whining, but to apply "whining" to what is really "constructive feedback" is another example of maturity, or lack thereof. It's really the applause to the constructive feedback that I was referring to, the feedback that has helped to turn around, to the limited extent that issues have, and influenced the ever evolving landscape of our gaming experience. Anytime someone says something constructive, there's wee ones who come flaming in and throw the "whining" characterization around inappropriately. So if you want to call constructive feedback "whining" then yes, I'm proud to be a whiner helping to influence the changes needed in the game. Its my pleasure to help clarify this for you, I can see how it might have been a struggle given your starting position.
Message Edited by BleuDestiny on 03-03-2005 03:30 PM