Business And Economy Archive

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CenoKreFey wrote:

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mpdivo wrote:

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If prices are visible as well, price wars will ensue with only the oldest, most prominent crafters emerging as victors. This will create a monopoly that will alienate newer crafters and cancel many accounts. In turn, its likely once the smaller crafters are done away with, prices will inflate again.

Message Edited by CenoKreFey on 02-23-2005 01:25 PM

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New crafters use the bazaars in their current fashion to sell their goods. I don't see any price wars on CDEF rifles or wookie garbs?

I still use the bazaarto sellitems like Starship Texture Kits which no reasonable merchant should ever sell for more than 6000 credits.

Your thoughts are wild speculation and nothing more.

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Get real. Bazaar goods have almost no effect on the economycompared to player vendor based goods. Bazaar is limited at 6k, vendors virtually unlimited. Starship texture kits or repair tools or clothing will not make or break the economy. I'm talking about commonly needed big ticket items like armor, weapons, chef crates, starships, etc. I'll use my profession (armor) to illustrate my point and how I could drive other AS's out of business:

The proposed merchant changes take effect, making vendors browsable, and lets say, without price listed. I will do the following as a result:
- post on the forums telling my customers to browse INSERT_SMALL_ITEM's made by "Nareese" to see my prices, or sort the listing ofsaid items alphabetically and look for items starting with "Armor by Nareese...". This will allow them to see the stats and prices of my items. They will find, say, a 20sided dice named "Armor by Nareese - 80 Elec/71 base 40k cond right bicep @ 30k". This is not the final problem, but a trend that will become normal behavior and lead to the final problem.

The problem with the above is twofold. One, not everyone who plays regularly visits the forums. Advertising here is iffy at best. Two, if I'm looking for armor, I'm not going to browse 20 sided dice or anything else like them. I'll be browsing armor and buying the best quality I can afford.

- I'll be able to easily check competitor's prices. If I see someone has considerable stock, comparable to mine, I will undercut them. I've been collecting resources for over a year, and I have millions of good resources that other newer AS's can only afford in stacks of 20k. I can mass produce stuff at a lower price than them and still be able to lower prices as necessary. Say my armor is 400k/set, their's is 375k/set. I'll lower mine to 350k. We battle til they lower theirs to 275k. I go 250k. The newer armorsmith who doesn't have a ton of good resources will notsell enough armor to keep their profit margins at a competitive level. They will stop competing and, since everyone can easily see quality and prices, they will only get very few sales from walk-ins who are not taking advantage of galaxy wide searching.

If you only go 25k cheaper, then all you do is make more work for yourself. If people don't respond to your undercutting, your stuff gets bought first, theneveryone elses. Or, if you're like me, you buy the undercut stuff and relist itfor the price you sell your stuff for. If you start a price war to undercut newer AS's, what do you think the response of AS's as old as you will be? You will not be price waring with the new AS, but theestablished AS with just as many resources as you have.Let's notmention the fact that at 400k, your profit margin on Composite is outrageous regardless of how much you are paying for your resources...

This system will give an advantage to the older crafters. So much so, that newer crafters will have a 5x harder time breaking into the market. This will be bad for all crafters, since profit margins will decrease due to competition. Which leaves the only true winners being those with massive amounts of credits saved up. The economy isn't in bad shape because of crafters. Its the way it is because there used to be way too much money coming into the game, and certain afk looters can dominate uber loot and set whatever prices they want. Please disprove what I'm saying without using the bazaar as an example.

Actually, older crafters advantage comes from the fact that they are established, well known, and have a solid customer base, something new crafters currently have no way to break in to. With a Galaxy wide search, customers would now have the option to check around to see how their "fave" compairs with others. Yes, profit margins will fluctuate a bit at first, but they will eventually settle down. Competition is always good, and a Galaxy wide search would increase not only competition, but quality. It would bring a whole new game to crafters as they strive to put out the absolute best product...

The bazaar is for starting players and crafters alike. There, they can buy and sell items of their skill level without much worry about being pushed out by Master Crafters. You can not compare the Bazaar with a Galaxy-wide Search on Merchant Vendors. If established crafters use the Bazaar at all, its for advertisment, which is basically what you proposed to do above, and which is currently done by vast numbers of crafters. You can see Rug Adhesives with starting auction prices at 6k (which means they can't be bid on) advertising loot vendors without worry that they will lose their precious adhesives. You can do the same with your best Armor, allowing everyone to see the stats and you can put the vendor location and price right in the description...

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I'll be able to easily check competitor's prices. If I see someone has considerable stock, comparable to mine, I will undercut them. I've been collecting resources for over a year, and I have millions of good resources that other newer AS's can only afford in stacks of 20k. I can mass produce stuff at a lower price than them and still be able to lower prices as necessary. Say my armor is 400k/set, their's is 375k/set. I'll lower mine to 350k. We battle til they lower theirs to 275k. I go 250k. The newer armorsmith who doesn't have a ton of good resources will not sell enough armor to keep their profit margins at a competitive level. They will stop competing and, since everyone can easily see quality and prices, they will only get very few sales from walk-ins who are not taking advantage of galaxy wide searching.

Your argument was coming along until you said that. Why would the Armorsmith stop competing? You can't ever go out of business in this game because resources are basically free and infinite. If someone likes making armor but doesn't make a lot of money doing it because other ppl make better armor.... oh well. Anyone can drop a harvester on the ground put some money in it and the next day they have a stack of resources. Chances are if you're selling 50 armor packages a day and he's selling none you are not going to be able to pump our armor fast enough to meet the demand and eventually players will buy his armor cause you are busy making more.

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mpdivo wrote:

Chronic collectors complain often that Ebay has jacked up prices of many collectible items. Please explain why the world hasn't price cut the economy out of existance with comparative shopping. Explain why prices have gone up on some collectable goods.

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Collectables are a very poor example to use in this case. Strictly speaking, collectables are items that have a limited number. Millions of people have access to Ebay. Our particular economy runs in the thousands. Surely you don't think that applying a real world system with a customer base of hundreds of millions of people is somehow comparable to a system with only thousands. As for other items, prices have dropped. Value depreciation as we know it on items is a function based on the mass production of new models. And as you notice, prices drop dramatically. If new production were slower in general in the real world, products wouldn't depreciate as much as they do.

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bluejanus wrote:

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mpdivo wrote:

Chronic collectors complain often that Ebay has jacked up prices of many collectible items. Please explain why the world hasn't price cut the economy out of existance with comparative shopping. Explain why prices have gone up on some collectable goods.

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Collectables are a very poor example to use in this case. Strictly speaking, collectables are items that have a limited number. Millions of people have access to Ebay. Our particular economy runs in the thousands. Surely you don't think that applying a real world system with a customer base of hundreds of millions of people is somehow comparable to a system with only thousands. As for other items, prices have dropped. Value depreciation as we know it on items is a function based on the mass production of new models. And as you notice, prices drop dramatically. If new production were slower in general in the real world, products wouldn't depreciate as much as they do.

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I disagree. Collectables are comparable to items such as tumbler blenders, feed tubes, red wires and other loot items that are limited in quanity.

I don't see the difference between millions and thousands? Just saying that the economy of SWG has no base in real world economics does not make it so. Your not making very good points here.

So other items have dropped in price? So what? Did merchants suddenly disappear?

If you can compare price and quality, prices will drop. This is a good thing. Competition is a good thing. Whether its a thousand or a million.

Message Edited by CenoKreFey on 03-05-2005 09:35 PM

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mpdivo wrote:

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bluejanus wrote:

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mpdivo wrote:

Chronic collectors complain often that Ebay has jacked up prices of many collectible items. Please explain why the world hasn't price cut the economy out of existance with comparative shopping. Explain why prices have gone up on some collectable goods.

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Collectables are a very poor example to use in this case. Strictly speaking, collectables are items that have a limited number. Millions of people have access to Ebay. Our particular economy runs in the thousands. Surely you don't think that applying a real world system with a customer base of hundreds of millions of people is somehow comparable to a system with only thousands. As for other items, prices have dropped. Value depreciation as we know it on items is a function based on the mass production of new models. And as you notice, prices drop dramatically. If new production were slower in general in the real world, products wouldn't depreciate as much as they do.

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I disagree. Collectables are comparable to items such as tumbler blenders, feed tubes, red wires and other loot items that are limited in quanity.

I don't see the difference between millions and thousands? Just saying that the economy of SWG has no base in real world economics does not make it so. Your not making very good points here.

So other items have dropped in price? So what? Did merchants suddenly disappear?

If you can compare price and quality, prices will drop. This is a good thing. Competition is a good thing. Whether its a thousand or a million.

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Those recycler parts you mentioned are components for products, not truly collectables in the sense that most people would use. A collectable in this game might be a palm frond or a fruit cart. The loot parts you mentioned aren't rare because they're collectables with limited runs, they're rare because the production is irregular.

There's a great deal of different between thousands and millions (other than the obvious numbers) in regards to customer base. Changes in the economic system or other ripples in the economy are magnified more in a smaller population than in a larger one. Fixed comparative shopping in real life is often deceptive. Companies say they'll match any price for the same product and then make sure that what they sell is not comparable to what other people offer. Sites like Ebay that offer comparative pricing do not compare with every or even most competitors. They only compare with some. And of course they prefer comparisons that cast them in a better light. In real life, these companies compete for market share. And it's there's a lot of market out there with the millions of potential customers.

Competition being a good thing? What does that have to do with a game system? Should crafters be actively trying to drive competitors out of business like they do in real life? Comparative shopping in real life isn't something that companies do to be fair or be nice or any of that crap. They do it to sell their products and cast their competitors in a bad light.

The idea of competition being good is probably engraved in Western civilization/culture. In real life, competition keeps companies from being stagnant, from becoming complacent. It forces them to innovate to come up with new things to capture market share. This game is greatly hindered by the lack of variety in products. Not to blame the devs though, I imagine that it can be difficult to come up with variety that compares to real life or even written text. Other than complaints about pricing by some people (if you shopped around like most people don't, you'd find out people charge all sorts of prices for things), what problem would be fixed by inducing more direct competitive forces in the game economy?

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bluejanus wrote:

Other than complaints about pricing by some people (if you shopped around like most people don't, you'd find out people charge all sorts of prices for things), what problem would be fixed by inducing more direct competitive forces in the game economy?

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Pricing is a problem but the most serious problem to be fixed is the gameplay aspect of this which you are quick to point out, that this doesn't compare to real life, but it is indeed a game with a smaller population. There is nothing fun about driving around for hours, looking for rare resources, loot, or a certain weapon. You can waypoint malls all you like but without a method to search for these items, it just makes for really bad gameplay. It's boring. Period.

The argument against putting vendors on the bazaars, at least in the fashion of putting a waypoint only (vice being able to buy directly from the vendor), is based on not giving a rats ass about the consumer or for the Master Artisans/Shipwrights, etc out there who want an additional way to advertise their goods.

The argument has been made that this sort of bazaar function would not make for easier gameplay, that micro buyers would emerge to find and buy the rarest items. I raise the BS flag on that. I just don't believe it, especially if the consumer needs to travel to the appropriate waypoint. And if rare resources and items are bought up right away buy these speculative buyers, then at least I will know, from one bazaar that the particular item that I am searching for, does not exist. I will save myself four hours of mindless swoop driving, listening to the same fracking song when I fly by a red.

The argument is made that people will undercut their prices. Yes they will. I do that now. I sell chassis for a loss and I make my profits with disposables. That is what they do with Printers in real life. Sell for a loss and make up on the ink.

So what if someone tries to undercut me on disposables? I'm not going to starve. My kids are not going to starve because you can't have kids in this game. I will continue on being a Master Shipwright until I'm bored with it and want to move on to something else.

And right now, the most boring thing about my profession, is driving around to crappy vendor after vendor, looking for rare resources.

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CenoKreFey wrote:

Hmmm...let's see. I never claimed to be for the little guy. I only call it as I see it (or foresee it). Established crafters can be easily usurped by new crafters if those crafters had the same materials. Reputation will mean little to most customers, if they get a comparable product for less. It comes down to the resources, and unlike architects EDIT and shipwrights, most professions take LOTS of different RARE resources collected over many many months or over a year. You can't just lay down 10 harvies and then make a comparable product the next week. Yes "anyone" can lay down harvies, but if there hasn't been comparable Kiirium or Gallinorian Rainbow Gems in 6 months like on Gorath, then it ain't gonna do them a lot of good to make 66% base armor or350 max dmg T-21's.

Either they implement this and you see why I'm right or they don't implement this,whichprobably proves theycame to my conclusions. In any case, I'm out of this thread. I don't think anyone responding to me has made it to the "top" of their professions of their servers or stayed there very long if they did, and can truly understand all of what I said.

Message Edited by CenoKreFey on 03-05-2005 09:35 PM

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mpdivo wrote:

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CenoKreFey wrote:

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I stopped by your shop after a long drive and was suprised at the items you didn't have, the low cost windmills, mineral extractors, etc that are beginning crafter can make and supply to the economy.

That is what I hate most about this debate. The incredibly rich Master Merchants who only make the high priced items in order to make a profit, meanwhile not doing any sort of crafting that will help out the starting character. You are right, you are not for the little guy.

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That's a good point. I hadn't made very many wind generators or solar generators mostly because people who ground artisan put loads of them on the bazaar. I didn't really feel it was worth my time when there was a readily available alternative. I do sell mineral extractors. I used to sell most other medium harvesters, but the traffic on them is slow, so I've stopped and am just letting the current stock disappear.

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bluejanus wrote:

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mpdivo wrote:

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CenoKreFey wrote:

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I stopped by your shop after a long drive and was suprised at the items you didn't have, the low cost windmills, mineral extractors, etc that are beginning crafter can make and supply to the economy.

That is what I hate most about this debate. The incredibly rich Master Merchants who only make the high priced items in order to make a profit, meanwhile not doing any sort of crafting that will help out the starting character. You are right, you are not for the little guy.

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That's a good point. I hadn't made very many wind generators or solar generators mostly because people who ground artisan put loads of them on the bazaar. I didn't really feel it was worth my time when there was a readily available alternative. I do sell mineral extractors. I used to sell most other medium harvesters, but the traffic on them is slow, so I've stopped and am just letting the current stock disappear.

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That is the problem. They don't load up bazaars. Wind Generators and solar generators are not as bad as weaponsmith or armorsmith items. When you are working your way up the marksman tree, you like to buy the weapon that you are most qualified to use. The problem is that on bazzaars you only can find what you can make up to Master Artisan and on the vendors you can only find only the most advanced weapons. Finding a spraystick can be a friggin nightmare.

Same thing with low end food/drinks.

And this is wrong because?

Look, the galaxy wide search will only help crafters, new and old, and resource miners/architect/shipwright/artisan/power brokers (I hope you see my point that I not only put alot of time and effort into this but am also able to provide resources and crafted goods to my customer base relativly cheap and to my guildmates for free) such as myself.

Background:

I have played this game since release, I began harvesting wind power, and as the architect profession emerged and became mature I bagan providing radioactive power, I am in fact the first power broker on ahazi to provide power in bulk meaning huge quantities....

This was long before vehicles, I often ran out to the boonies to deliver power to my crafter customers.....

Now Im sure your assuming I must have price gouged everyone who came my way. Not at all, I infact publically voiced my concern about the prices people were charging for power, when that didnt work I dumped power on various markets so cheap people stopped pricing outrageously...

Fast forward to now:

Power sales have sharply declined in the last 3-5 months, where I used to sell my entire inventory of what I pulled weekly (25 pre nerf fusions, yes I got lucky on the fusion experimentation patch) around 2-3.5 milliuon units, half of it now sits idle on my vendor for WEEKS.....this isnt anything less than 600 PE radio either EVER....and I still price at 1 cpu based on PE because I can.

guess why theyve delined?

Fewer dedicated crafters = fewer people using resources = less need for resources = less need for power......

So what do you do as a merchant, you retool your selection

Wheres the rest of the power go?

Straight into my mining operation, all run via lot swaps. Something Ive done for over a year now

And guess what I dont gouge on resources either I sell based on quality and market rates (I have after a year of this a very keen sense of pricing) I also give resources away to guildmates thereby lowering there costs and making them more competative.

I run a specialized resource mining concern as well harvesting resources for the doctors on my server, guess what this helps them price buff packs at a fairly reasonable level, cheaper buff packs = cheaper buff prices = less costly for combatants.....

Ok so get rid of Lot Swaps fine i'll just keep producing power, guess what Im pricing it higher now.

Im also pricing power ups, housing decor, ships, resources, harvestors, spices and everything else I make higher, or alternativly Im going to dump goodsso cheap that the competition ceases to exist.....if you dont think I can and will sell a small house deed for 100 credits your flat wrong.....if you dont think Ill sell power at 10 cpu your also wrong. Its not like I dont have MILLIONS of resources in backstock

The SWG economy is just that an ECONOMY and I participate as a merchant so I dont have to spend time running boring missions, so I can do a bit of crafting and provide cheap resources to people that need it, newbie crafters and my customers that have been with me from the start.

Its not some feel good carebear communist price control system your fantasizing about...its much like PVP if I fill threatened one of us is not walking away....and it sure aint gonna be me cloning buster......

So whats this have to do with galaxy wide bazzar searches?

Increased competition and thats good for everyone, prices will reach thier equilibrium because theres some new architect out there just getting started and he wants to move product. And guess what hes going to give me a run for my money and I hope he does because maybe Ive been resting on my laurels and pricing a bit to high or something.....so Ill price more in line with him lowering prices for the consumer.....will be be able to compete with me in other areas? power sales or resources? probably not.....but if hes new he shouldnt be able to because Ive got more of an advantage due to time in game. Thats what merit based capitalistic systems are made of.....and if you dont like it, well you dont have to compete now do you......