Business And Economy Archive
Thread: BUYER BEWARE !!!!!! DON'T PAY OUTRAGEOUS PRICES FOR WEAPONS OR ARMOR !
Well, I guess all those "Where is everyone??" and "Can a crafter send me an in-game email" and "Are any vendors stocked?" posts were just imaginary and I'm sure they're all back and happy with dealing with the 400% organic requirement increases for AS, the "can't make thenew weapons" issue with WS, and the "Nothing seems to be working outside of dancing jawa modules and stim throwers" issue for MDEs.
My mistake.
Message Edited by Handsnake on 05-08-2005 06:39 PM
Pawlin wrote:As far as resources go I don't think they really made Armorsmith easier. They increased the number of resources and made them use more organics, right? By reducing the inorganics and increasing the organics, it makes it so that its harder to rely on a giant stockpile of the best materials. I think what they were seeing is that the established crafters have sit on large stockpiles of old high quality materials (the OQ 990-1000 type stuff). This gives them a big advantage over the new people. So if your new and don't have the super-metal from 13 montths ago then you either have to wait forever for something equally good to spawn, buy it at a huge price or make lower quality goods. THats not much fun. By changing the resource requirments to be more hide/bone then it limits the amount that people can stockpile at any time. Sure people will still stockpile but they won't be able to get as much as if they just used harvesters.
But I guess they did make armorsmith easier at least as far as experimentation goes. That might just have been a consequence of how they changed the way armor works. If you take away HAM costs cause HAM changes then armor looses an experimentation line. SOE still might have favored making armorsmith easier though so this might have been acceptable consequence for them.
SOE may have also wanted to make armorsmith a little easier in order to increase supply. As long as supply is low, prices are higher. If prices are too high then the average player has a harder time. The price of armor is something that people have frequently whined about and SOE might hear that and agree to some extent.
I do understand the concern that some Armorsmiths don't want to see their profession made too easy. Architect is not very hard in a lot of ways and it has negative consequences. You can grind to master in an hour. Most of our products don't have any quality and those that do aren't hard to maximize. This leads to more competition, less stability in the suppliers and more supply.
They did make things easier for new Armorsmiths. They did so, as you said, by removing some of the advantage established ones had (AKA, nullifying effort). Just increasing the number of resources used was a good move for reducing existing stockpiles fairly. Changing what was required all together is what I have an issue with. You said that these barriers to entering the market were not fun. I disagree. To me, that's a big part of the draw. As I tried to point out for those that disagree with me, there are much easier professions already available that would be found more enjoyable by them.
The experimentation system was made pretty simplistic, yes. It's now simplistic for new and old smiths so, while stupid, it is at least fair. Of course, those 1-2M per point (or more) experimentation suits are now more like 150K per point suits. So, there's that same effect again. That's not so bad either though. Since the tapes are never really consumed but continue to drop, the value would only go down in time anyway. The process was simply increased by a factor of about a hundred (<- guess).
If thier ultimate goal was to create a larger supply of more affordable armor for everyone, they did a pretty poor job. I believe the idea was one of two things or perhaps both. One would be making things easy on the newer smiths. The other would be creating a system that's easier for them to code.
Vastar wrote:
Pawlin wrote:
As far as resources go I don't think they really made Armorsmith easier. They increased the number of resources and made them use more organics, right? By reducing the inorganics and increasing the organics, it makes it so that its harder to rely on a giant stockpile of the best materials. I think what they were seeing is that the established crafters have sit on large stockpiles of old high quality materials (the OQ 990-1000 type stuff). This gives them a big advantage over the new people. So if your new and don't have the super-metal from 13 montths ago then you either have to wait forever for something equally good to spawn, buy it at a huge price or make lower quality goods. THats not much fun. By changing the resource requirments to be more hide/bone then it limits the amount that people can stockpile at any time. Sure people will still stockpile but they won't be able to get as much as if they just used harvesters.
But I guess they did make armorsmith easier at least as far as experimentation goes. That might just have been a consequence of how they changed the way armor works. If you take away HAM costs cause HAM changes then armor looses an experimentation line. SOE still might have favored making armorsmith easier though so this might have been acceptable consequence for them.
SOE may have also wanted to make armorsmith a little easier in order to increase supply. As long as supply is low, prices are higher. If prices are too high then the average player has a harder time. The price of armor is something that people have frequently whined about and SOE might hear that and agree to some extent.
I do understand the concern that some Armorsmiths don't want to see their profession made too easy. Architect is not very hard in a lot of ways and it has negative consequences. You can grind to master in an hour. Most of our products don't have any quality and those that do aren't hard to maximize. This leads to more competition, less stability in the suppliers and more supply.
They did make things easier for new Armorsmiths. They did so, as you said, by removing some of the advantage established ones had (AKA, nullifying effort). Just increasing the number of resources used was a good move for reducing existing stockpiles fairly. Changing what was required all together is what I have an issue with. You said that these barriers to entering the market were not fun. I disagree. To me, that's a big part of the draw. As I tried to point out for those that disagree with me, there are much easier professions already available that would be found more enjoyable by them.
The experimentation system was made pretty simplistic, yes. It's now simplistic for new and old smiths so, while stupid, it is at least fair. Of course, those 1-2M per point (or more) experimentation suits are now more like 150K per point suits. So, there's that same effect again. That's not so bad either though. Since the tapes are never really consumed but continue to drop, the value would only go down in time anyway. The process was simply increased by a factor of about a hundred (<- guess).
If thier ultimate goal was to create a larger supply of more affordable armor for everyone, they did a pretty poor job. I believe the idea was one of two things or perhaps both. One would be making things easy on the newer smiths. The other would be creating a system that's easier for them to code.
Note that I am playing devils advocate to some extent here.
I agree with you that a challenge is fun. But if its too hard then that isn't fun. Have you played an armorsmith starting out from scratch lately? Or did you start at launch and do it ever sense. If you have not tried breaking into an established economy from scratch lately, then it might be a lot than you know.
But its a matter of opinion on what is too hard or not. I think you and I might still like the challenge of breaking into a crafting profession from scratch in an established economy. But if too many people think its too hard then SOE"s going to listen to the majority of their customers.
You won't see much increase in supply in the short term. I think theres more demand for armor right now cause of all the changes with CU. People will be looking for the new "good" armor for a bit and armorsmiths will be getting used to the new changes and relearning how to best make all the good stuff. But in the long term if armorsmith is really easier then supply will increase. That doesn't happen over night though. It takes a while for people to grind out the profession and get setup.
Zhundult wrote:
Handsnake wrote:
Well, I guess all those "Where is everyone??" and "Can a crafter send me an in-game email" and "Are any vendors stocked?" posts were just imaginary and I'm sure they're all back and happy with dealing with the 400% organic requirement increases for AS, the "can't make thenew weapons" issue with WS, and the "Nothing seems to be working outside of dancing jawa modules and stim throwers" issue for MDEs.
My mistake.
P.S. "Denial" ain't just a river in Egypt, ya know.
Message Edited by Handsnake on 05-08-2005 06:39 PM
I also think I'd have noticed if 80% of the population on Kett had disappeared. It's certainly not the case. Whoever you talked to was inflating the numbers quite a bit.
Sure, some people may have actually quit over the CURB. Some people may still quit because of it. Certainly some may switch professions. But saying 70% is quite a high estimation I believe. Of course, that's just an estimate.
Here is a thread in the kettemoor forum. There are a number of people there saying that people who had previously quit are returning. I've seen no other polls on the topic in the Kett forum. Hearsay about one persons guestimate of how many people quit isn't really compelling evidence.
Pawlin wrote:
Vastar wrote:
Pawlin wrote:
As far as resources go I don't think they really made Armorsmith easier. They increased the number of resources and made them use more organics, right? By reducing the inorganics and increasing the organics, it makes it so that its harder to rely on a giant stockpile of the best materials. I think what they were seeing is that the established crafters have sit on large stockpiles of old high quality materials (the OQ 990-1000 type stuff). This gives them a big advantage over the new people. So if your new and don't have the super-metal from 13 montths ago then you either have to wait forever for something equally good to spawn, buy it at a huge price or make lower quality goods. THats not much fun. By changing the resource requirments to be more hide/bone then it limits the amount that people can stockpile at any time. Sure people will still stockpile but they won't be able to get as much as if they just used harvesters.
But I guess they did make armorsmith easier at least as far as experimentation goes. That might just have been a consequence of how they changed the way armor works. If you take away HAM costs cause HAM changes then armor looses an experimentation line. SOE still might have favored making armorsmith easier though so this might have been acceptable consequence for them.
SOE may have also wanted to make armorsmith a little easier in order to increase supply. As long as supply is low, prices are higher. If prices are too high then the average player has a harder time. The price of armor is something that people have frequently whined about and SOE might hear that and agree to some extent.
I do understand the concern that some Armorsmiths don't want to see their profession made too easy. Architect is not very hard in a lot of ways and it has negative consequences. You can grind to master in an hour. Most of our products don't have any quality and those that do aren't hard to maximize. This leads to more competition, less stability in the suppliers and more supply.
They did make things easier for new Armorsmiths. They did so, as you said, by removing some of the advantage established ones had (AKA, nullifying effort). Just increasing the number of resources used was a good move for reducing existing stockpiles fairly. Changing what was required all together is what I have an issue with. You said that these barriers to entering the market were not fun. I disagree. To me, that's a big part of the draw. As I tried to point out for those that disagree with me, there are much easier professions already available that would be found more enjoyable by them.
The experimentation system was made pretty simplistic, yes. It's now simplistic for new and old smiths so, while stupid, it is at least fair. Of course, those 1-2M per point (or more) experimentation suits are now more like 150K per point suits. So, there's that same effect again. That's not so bad either though. Since the tapes are never really consumed but continue to drop, the value would only go down in time anyway. The process was simply increased by a factor of about a hundred (<- guess).
If thier ultimate goal was to create a larger supply of more affordable armor for everyone, they did a pretty poor job. I believe the idea was one of two things or perhaps both. One would be making things easy on the newer smiths. The other would be creating a system that's easier for them to code.
Note that I am playing devils advocate to some extent here.
I agree with you that a challenge is fun. But if its too hard then that isn't fun. Have you played an armorsmith starting out from scratch lately? Or did you start at launch and do it ever sense. If you have not tried breaking into an established economy from scratch lately, then it might be a lot than you know.
But its a matter of opinion on what is too hard or not. I think you and I might still like the challenge of breaking into a crafting profession from scratch in an established economy. But if too many people think its too hard then SOE"s going to listen to the majority of their customers.
You won't see much increase in supply in the short term. I think theres more demand for armor right now cause of all the changes with CU. People will be looking for the new "good" armor for a bit and armorsmiths will be getting used to the new changes and relearning how to best make all the good stuff. But in the long term if armorsmith is really easier then supply will increase. That doesn't happen over night though. It takes a while for people to grind out the profession and get setup.
Easier? Only thing that is easier is the actual experimentation. Armor takes 4x as long to make and some of the resources are the rarest to ever spawn. Plexite gemstone? We've had like 8 spawns in the history of Shadowfire... Naboo Bristley? That one is just nuts..... along with Dathomir fiberplast. New AS can not compete with us old smiths. With these new resources being added, they actually made it harder for them to make any layers or advanced core types. It was hard enough for me to get all these resources and I already had half of them.... the increases in usage is insane too. Even if you have resource kits, that will only give you 1 run at a time...... I could go on forever on this subject......
We have to hand make everything on the final combine. With this alone, it makes armor so not worth making sometimes. The only armor that is in demand" right now is faction armor.
Pawlin wrote:
Note that I am playing devils advocate to some extent here.I agree with you that a challenge is fun. But if its too hard then that isn't fun. Have you played an armorsmith starting out from scratch lately? Or did you start at launch and do it ever sense. If you have not tried breaking into an established economy from scratch lately, then it might be a lot than you know.
But its a matter of opinion on what is too hard or not. I think you and I might still like the challenge of breaking into a crafting profession from scratch in an established economy. But if too many people think its too hard then SOE"s going to listen to the majority of their customers.
You won't see much increase in supply in the short term. I think theres more demand for armor right now cause of all the changes with CU. People will be looking for the new "good" armor for a bit and armorsmiths will be getting used to the new changes and relearning how to best make all the good stuff. But in the long term if armorsmith is really easier then supply will increase. That doesn't happen over night though. It takes a while for people to grind out the profession and get setup.
I was a Tailor for a year or so when I decieded to take up Armorsmith. I was looking forward to the challange. It took a long time for me to be able to make the good stuff and to collect my 12 point suit. I felt the smiths that had been doing it from the start had an advantage over me. I wasn't an Armorsmith from day one, however, so their advantage was deserved. I never even thought to question that.
If someone finds it too difficult, there are about half a dozen more crafting professions to pick from. Most if not all are easier than Armorsmithing. Just because SOE will do something stupid no matter what isn't reason enough for me to dismiss it.
Regardless of the supply of armor now, it takes more resouces and time to create. It will be more expensive based on that, at least.
I'm playing reality's advocate, by the way.
Last but not least, the CU also killed my spell checker. So, I wash my hands of any spelling errors.
Vastar wrote:
...
I was a Tailor for a year or so when I decieded to take up Armorsmith. I was looking forward to the challange. It took a long time for me to be able to make the good stuff and to collect my 12 point suit. I felt the smiths that had been doing it from the start had an advantage over me. I wasn't an Armorsmith from day one, however, so their advantage was deserved. I never even thought to question that.
If someone finds it too difficult, there are about half a dozen more crafting professions to pick from. Most if not all are easier than Armorsmithing. Just because SOE will do something stupid no matter what isn't reason enough for me to dismiss it.
But if someone wants to do armorsmith then they want to do armorsmith. If someone is whining cause its too hard (to them), then they probably aren't going to be thrilled if SOEs tells them to do something else instead. Cause they want to do armorsmith. If they would be happy doing something else then they wouldn't be whining.
Now, bear in mind I am pretty much assuming that people are whining to SOE about it being hard. Or at least it seems SOE perceives that. SOE does seem to be wanting to make things easier in general, least that appears to be the general trend.
Regardless of the supply of armor now, it takes more resouces and time to create. It will be more expensive based on that, at least.
Probably.
But makingit easier might increase supply which would then drive down costs. And if demand goes down as well, then prices will drop due to that too.
UmmonPrime wrote:
...Easier? Only thing that is easier is the actual experimentation. ...
Pawlin wrote:
I'm quite sure that 80% of the people on Kettemoor have not quit.
That would be VERY noticable on a smller server like ours and I've not noticed people leaving.
Yes he said crafters. I don't believe 80% of crafters on Kettemoor have quit.
Monski wrote:
I'm a weaponsmith, and I know for a fact that a lot of weapons come out with a base damage of 700 or 800+, same materials, resources, etc. People are trying to sell these weapons in spurts on vendors and auctions listing them as uber !! UNSLICED AT THAT !!! I've made over 50mil being fair with prices, image the people who get away with this and have over 100 or 200 mill sitting in the bank while you struggle to loot and run missons while they continue to jack up prices. I've also seen base armor selling for 4mill a suit. Just beware of this, the CU already has people upset. Don't let greedy people ruin it either.
EXACTLY
These fat rich socailists with their uber1337 looters in their pockets convince people they NEED weapons that cost millions. THEY DONT!
They people have begun to realize this and I hope that these billion credit bobs will dwindle down to no bodies
BlackJango wrote:
...EXACTLY
These fat rich socailists with their uber1337 looters in their pockets convince people they NEED weapons that cost millions. THEY DONT!
They people have begun to realize this and I hope that these billion credit bobs will dwindle down to no bodies
Monski wrote:
I'm a weaponsmith, and I know for a fact that a lot of weapons come out with a base damage of 700 or 800+, same materials, resources, etc. People are trying to sell these weapons in spurts on vendors and auctions listing them as uber !! UNSLICED AT THAT !!! I've made over 50mil being fair with prices, image the people who get away with this and have over 100 or 200 mill sitting in the bank while you struggle to loot and run missons while they continue to jack up prices. I've also seen base armor selling for 4mill a suit. Just beware of this, the CU already has people upset. Don't let greedy people ruin it either.
since you are a weaponsmith then u shouldnt speak for armorsmiths. uber resources make uber armor. for us armorsmiths the amount of resources req'd is insane. so our 10 harvies b4 which were able to keep on top of spawns to keep up with the demand for armor resource requirements do not even come close anymore. we now depend on others to do most of the mining. i'm not going to sell my armor at 3-10cpu per resource if thats what i'm paying for it.
Stay out of our kitchen if u dont know our profession. U didnt go through the changes we had to.
What they need to do increase payouts on missions and bring back the loot industry. right now the trade forums are dead now cause they pretty muched nerfed the use of SEA's. there is still plenty of peeps out there with way to much money that can afford the price of items that are being soldat. But the majority still need help in making some dough.