Business And Economy Archive
Thread: The economics of a crafter
This is the realty of meat prices. If your not offering 150% to 200% of what a master combatant can make running money missions they're not going go get it for you. The other problem is most of the players in the game don’t use the forums and don’t know about the profitability in organics which significantly curtails supply.
DirthNader wrote:
This is why you see organic resource prices up where they are - unless the price offered for them beats the mission terminal in regards to profitablity, it's virtually impossible to find a hunter.
For example:
If the best avian spawn happens to be Tat, you can get about 40 units of meat per mission on nunas. At 250 cpu that’s 10k per mission. With organics you usually have no chance of getting loot and are hassled with the burden of having to sell it as well. So if I’m in it for money it’s easier doing a 10k mission on something with a possible loot drop (which makes grinding something a lot more fun) and get paid up front.
Message Edited by ObiQuixote on 01-24-2005 09:10 PM
Note: By saying "Corner an unlimited market", I mean the assumption that by driving their cpu prchase price up, they will get more meat than other Buffpack makers. Spawns, while limited in duration, have no cap at how much can be harvested, making the resource essentially unlimited.. If there were a limit how high people would pay, say 100cpu - The hunters, instead of waiting for the highest bid to sell their goods, would begin to work with one buffpack maker exclusively - essentially a contract. Said buffpack makers would still receive the same amounts of meat they are getting now - but at a much lower hit to their bank account.
BleuDestiny wrote:
I don't agree that it would hurt anything, other than to provide balance to what favors the hunter right now. Basically its a grunt profession, labor, low wage job, other than those who really get into hunting as a talent (Ranger) to get good at it and figure out ways to get 10x the amount of meat that the average peep who just picks up a weapon and starts hacking at things would get. So for the average lair hacker to pick up a weapon and pound out a million credits in one buff session makes no sense from any logical or immersive standpoint. It's lame.
I understand your logic in this approach, but it's flawed on a basic level. Hunters don't in realitydictate the market price - the buyer establishes this. Through a lot of competitiveness, Buffpack makers have thrown the market out of balance. Essentially, if the bidding for a meat spawn never exceeded 100cpu, that is ALL a hunter would ever receive, and they would never expect more. But, Buffpack makers in their desire to try and corner a market that is essentially unlimited have driven the cpu price to astronomical levels, and NOW the hunters expect 200 - 300cpu on a regular basis. Fact of the matter is, if everyone sat back and refused to exceed a certain limit on the cpu they pay, more hunters would develop a relationship with a particular Buffpack maker, and supply them exclusively. After all, why shop around for a better price if the price is equal across the board? As to the payouts being lame - So were Solo groups, yet people are asking that the system be put back into place.
Bottom line, hunters have mission payouts where they can also collect the meat and sell it at a "reasonable price." As a profession needing meat, I don't care how many ranch structures I have with my lot limits, if its quality stuff, I'll always ALSO pay "reasonable prices" to hunters to add to the amount ranched. Hunters will never be replaced by a ranch structure, unless they refuse to sell at a reasonable price.
As the idea was originaly laid out, there were zero restrictions placed on said idea. People could gather any Meat/Hide/Bone from any planet, at the highest rates possible. So, at the cost of a couple lots (as said idea was stated), people could "ranch" Dantooine meat while based on Corellia, and gather a set amount per hour, like a regular mineral harvester. All things being equal, with that said, a Rancher could and WOULD exclusively use ranches to gather their resources - Hunters wouldn't even be needed. Pro: It would drive the cost of buffpacks WAY down (But, you can't guarantee that Docs would lower their buffing cost) Con: It removes a layer of immersion from the scouts and rangers who Hunt . Why would people pay a hunter even 10cpu for the meat if a Ranch could gather at a rate of .6?
I like your ideas about community approaches, like can't harvest Dath meat on Tats, however I can see the logic if the DNA is brought back to Tats. So pros and cons, but looking for whats best for the game overall. I think, like harvesters, that yes there should be some limits on what could be "ranched" just like there are limits on what can be harvested.
The purpose of stretching out is to replace the immersion layer for hunters, AND extend the immersion for several professions. Since the machine would be VERY restrictive to the hunters, include them at the base level, by having the machine require a base amount of the good to be used (Possibly 1k) - This gives hunters a chance to make a little cash from the ranchers. By including the BE to turn it into a genetic sample, it gives them something to do aside from making Brandy and Canape incessantly. By having to get the DNA viewed by a doctor, you give them something aside from healing and buffing - It also creates a bit more immersion for the hunter, asssuming that there is a small percentage that will be non-viable after the doctor examines it - the Hunter would need to be paid for another set of meat.
All in all, the idea has merits - But at the same time, retraining the Hunters to expect lower payouts does the same thing. People grumble and complain at the Solo nerf, but they go on. if buffpack makers did a similiar thing, and reined in their bidding wars, the market would stabilize to a normalized price.
MadeEvil wrote:
My problem with the ecomonics is that people are turning over huge profit margins
Just seems wierd to me when someone mines something at 1 cpu and sells it for 30 cpu thats a 3000% profit..
Does that seem off to you?
Not at all. Everyone has equal access to the resources. Everyone has 10 lots. Harvesters don't require certification to use. If the 30 cpu resource is available to everyone, why are you complaining about the profiteer and not mining it yourself? All you need is good information on resource spawns.
To be fair, 30 cpu is an exceptional resource. Many miners do large volume, low-margin businesses, like ore or radioactive. It's consistent money, but they aren't getting rich fast. Some miners (like myself) aim for high quality resources that they flip for fair prices to merchants who then triple their purchase price. I am getting rich, but not quickly (my average resource price is 6 cpu). A few miners aim for the uber-quality spawn that they can hold until the price gets driven up as people run out. These are the 30 cpu miners. The problem is, at any given time, chances are there aren't any resources that will ever be worth 30 cpu. So most of the time they are mining the sub-10 cpu stuff. They aren't getting rich quickly either.
I do believe that mining is the most consistent way to generate credits in the game. It's also the most egalitarian, with every profession having basically equally access. You can even get by without novice artisan if you want to. In my view, it's as fair a system as you will find in the game.
Create a ranch player city structure as an alternative to reliance on hunters, as an alternative, not to replace hunters, that also helps the architect and the BE earn a living. The architect crafts, experiments, and sells the structure, including quality aspects that lead to greater output of meat and hide, the BE is required to sample the DNA of the spawn to feed into the structure, and the crafter has a ready source of meat as a secondary channel to balance out the monopoly of the hunters. Like a harvester, when the meat or hide spawn dies, so does the output of the ranch.
Oh wow I love this idea.
I would only add... scouts can milk the animals without fooling with mask scent (and perhaps can milk each animal once a day or something, think cows on earth here conceptually) and perhaps CHs can "train" the animals to improve their output of things like milk, get them to fatten up and produce more meat (convert from "small and scrawny" to "medium" to "fat and healthy") over time. It would give CHs more to do with animal training than just having their critters attack things.
Otherwise though I really love this idea.
Also with regard to scouts charging 200 cr per unit of meat or hides... rofl that is hilarious. If anyone is on Naritus you can contact my TK/CH character, Katja, and we can work something out. Normally I charge 1 cpu for crap/grinding quality resources (possibly less if I know ya), 2 cpu for mediocre stuff, and 3-4 cpu if it is really awsome. If I found something with 900 in all stats or such I might charge a bit more (a bit meaning 5-7 cpu perhaps), but I'd never charge 200 cpu. That's just highway robbery IMO, especially since in general it costs next to nothing to harvest the meat. I'm gonna get mission money (hopefully) or at least XP for it (or if I don't that means it is such a trivial animal that it is no danger to me), so I can't see charging 200K for a thousand units of meat.
It's one thing if a scout auctions the meat and it just goes up to that price... nothing can be done about that. But price-gouging, personally, I find very annoying.
Haha... I gave my guild's armorsmith about 1200 units of wooly hide with one 900 stat and a few in the 700s, which I judged as "slightly better than mediocre" and charged him 2 cpu, asking if he thought that was fair... he was extactic. Now I know why.
C
Message Edited by Chessack on 01-25-2005 08:28 AM
I come in from hunting with a load of dath avian meat and a doctor is at the SO offering me 150CPU before I even get the dust off my boots. What do you think I am gonna do? Say "Oh no that is too much money to give me, how about 5CPU?"
I make no assertions about what anyone else would do, and you are entirely justified to accept the initial offer, but honestly, that is about what I would say. I would not let you pay me an outrageous price for something, not because I want to be poor, but because I guess I have this peculiar sense of honor. I know what I would ask for a really, really nice resource, and if you offer me way too much, I wouldn't charge you that much.
I'd do the same in real life you know. If I was offering to sell a used car for $1,000 or best offer, and somone mis-read the "o" in "or" as adding to the end of the number to make $10,000 (10K instead of 1K), I would correct him. I know the car I'm selling isn't worth 10K and I wouldn't let someone pay me such a silly amount.
I'm sure I am an odd duck when it comes to such things but I just can't live with myself if I feel like I have cheated other people, even in a game.
This reminds me of a story my mother used to tell about her brother, my uncle Johnny. Uncle Johnny back in the 1950s went to the bank for a money order. He got a $100.00 money order (1 hundred dollars). But the teller didn't put the period in there, so he ended up giving my uncle a money order for $10000 (10 thousand dollars). Note that this was the 50s so that'd be like getting a 100 thousand dollar money order today. Once it was on the money order and my uncle (not looking at it carefully) had walked out of the bank, that money was my uncle's. He could've kept it. "Logic" might suggest he do so -- hey it's "free" money. But ethically he also knew the teller would be fired over it, and that the money was not honestly his, and so when he got home and saw the mistake, he got right back into the car, drove back to the bank, and got the teller to fix it. The teller was eternally grateful, and I've always been proud of my uncle for that.
The point here is just because someone is stupid enough to pay you money you don't deserve, doesn't mean you have to take it. If you know darn well that the resources you're selling are not worth what is being offered, it might be logical to accept it but it's not necessarily something I personally would be proud of.
C
Message Edited by Chessack on 01-25-2005 08:35 AM
Message Edited by Chessack on 01-25-2005 08:37 AM
Wow I wish all servers were like Naritus on that regard, we're dealing with a hyper-economy in Flurry, where everything has to have 6 or 7 zeros on the price as a norm. It's silly, it kinda ruins any sense of immersion for me personally. I don't expect people in robes and soldiers to walk around throwing millions and billions of credits.
Chessack wrote:
Create a ranch player city structure as an alternative to reliance on hunters, as an alternative, not to replace hunters, that also helps the architect and the BE earn a living. The architect crafts, experiments, and sells the structure, including quality aspects that lead to greater output of meat and hide, the BE is required to sample the DNA of the spawn to feed into the structure, and the crafter has a ready source of meat as a secondary channel to balance out the monopoly of the hunters. Like a harvester, when the meat or hide spawn dies, so does the output of the ranch.
Oh wow I love this idea.
I would only add... scouts can milk the animals without fooling with mask scent (and perhaps can milk each animal once a day or something, think cows on earth here conceptually) and perhaps CHs can "train" the animals to improve their output of things like milk, get them to fatten up and produce more meat (convert from "small and scrawny" to "medium" to "fat and healthy" over time. It would give CHs more to do with animal training than just having their critters attack things.
Otherwise though I really love this idea.
Also with regard to scouts charging 200 cr per unit of meat or hides... rofl that is hilarious. If anyone is on Naritus you can contact my TK/CH character, Katja, and we can work something out. Normally I charge 1 cpu for crap/grinding quality resources (possibly less if I know ya), 2 cpu for mediocre stuff, and 3-4 cpu if it is really awsome. If I found something with 900 in all stats or such I might charge a bit more (a bit meaning 5-7 cpu perhaps), but I'd never charge 200 cpu. That's just highway robbery IMO, especially since in general it costs next to nothing to harvest the meat. I'm gonna get mission money (hopefully) or at least XP for it (or if I don't that means it is such a trivial animal that it is no danger to me), so I can't see charging 20K for a thousand units of meat.
It's one thing if a scout auctions the meat and it just goes up to that price... nothing can be done about that. But price-gouging, personally, I find very annoying.
Haha... I gave my guild's armorsmith about 1200 units of wooly hide with one 900 stat and a few in the 700s, which I judged as "slightly better than mediocre" and charged him 2 cpu, asking if he thought that was fair... he was extactic. Now I know why.
C
C
Chessack wrote:
I come in from hunting with a load of dath avian meat and a doctor is at the SO offering me 150CPU before I even get the dust off my boots. What do you think I am gonna do? Say "Oh no that is too much money to give me, how about 5CPU?"
I make no assertions about what anyone else would do, and you are entirely justified to accept the initial offer, but honestly, that is about what I would say. I would not let you pay me an outrageous price for something, not because I want to be poor, but because I guess I have this peculiar sense of honor. I know what I would ask for a really, really nice resource, and if you offer me way too much, I wouldn't charge you that much.
I'd do the same in real life you know. If I was offering to sell a used car for $1,000 or best offer, and somone mis-read the "o" in "or" as adding to the end of the number to make $10,000 (10K instead of 1K), I would correct him. I know the car I'm selling isn't worth 10K and I wouldn't let someone pay me such a silly amount.
I'm sure I am an odd duck when it comes to such things but I just can't live with myself if I feel like I have cheated other people, even in a game.
This reminds me of a story my mother used to tell about her brother, my uncle Johnny. Uncle Johnny back in the 1950s went to the bank for a money order. He got a $100.00 money order (1 hundred dollars). But the teller didn't put the period in there, so he ended up giving my uncle a money order for $10000 (10 thousand dollars). Note that this was the 50s so that'd be like getting a 100 thousand dollar money order today. Once it was on the money order and my uncle (not looking at it carefully) had walked out of the bank, that money was my uncle's. He could've kept it. "Logic" might suggest he do so -- hey it's "free" money. But ethically he also knew the teller would be fired over it, and that the money was not honestly his, and so when he got home and saw the mistake, he got right back into the car, drove back to the bank, and got the teller to fix it. The teller was eternally grateful, and I've always been proud of my uncle for that.
The point here is just because someone is stupid enough to pay you money you don't deserve, doesn't mean you have to take it. If you know darn well that the resources you're selling are not worth what is being offered, it might be logical to accept it but it's not necessarily something I personally would be proud of.
C
Message Edited by Chessack on 01-25-2005 08:35 AM
Message Edited by Chessack on 01-25-2005 08:37 AM
First never compare this game with the real world. Doesnt work. But since you did let me say this.
I am not talking about a newbie player who cant afford it or a player who mistyped his buy price. I am talking about a player who will take this 150 CPU product and turn it into a 15kCPU product.
So lets put this in semi-real terms. Lets say you have a widget. Its worth $10 to everyone else. But a select few people can take this widget and use it to make $10,000. But only they can do it. No one else can. And your not one of these people. You cant use it for anything except the $10 value. So you see one of these people and he offers you $100 for this widget. You dont set the price. This is what he offered to you before you even opened your mouth. Your telling me that not only would you NOT raise the price but you also would NOT take the offer of $100 knowing full well he will make $10k from it?
I am sorry but I cant believe it. Its called supply and demand with a twist. We have the supply and they have the demand. But the twist is they set the price not us.
Its foolish to say the least that you wouldnt sale it at their price. These are doctors that will take this product and make a huge profit from it no matter what they buy it for. So if you sale it for their price of 150CPU or your price of 15CPU do you honestly think they wont make a huge profit? The only difference is they wind up with more money thanks to you selling it cheaper.
PB32
Phaelyn wrote:
Note: By saying "Corner an unlimited market", I mean the assumption that by driving their cpu prchase price up, they will get more meat than other Buffpack makers. Spawns, while limited in duration, have no cap at how much can be harvested, making the resource essentially unlimited.. If there were a limit how high people would pay, say 100cpu - The hunters, instead of waiting for the highest bid to sell their goods, would begin to work with one buffpack maker exclusively - essentially a contract. Said buffpack makers would still receive the same amounts of meat they are getting now - but at a much lower hit to their bank account.
I'd definitely agree with you. Only problem here is that new crafters (those who are starting in a new prof but already have a lot of money made in another prof or looting) go by the foolish assumption that if they offer more money in the boards they will get more offers. On their minds I guess they believe that by doing this they can "steal" the offers that will be or are being made to the well-known and old crafters who are supposedly offering the same.
But what they fail to grasp here is that if he has 100 mill ready to spend on a resource likeavian meat for instance, thecouple of well-establishedDocs of his server probably have 200-300 mill stashed away ready to spend on the same thing.
And yeah, matching pricesis a good politicsin this case, only problem here is that depending on how many crafters are trying to start off in a professionwhen acertain meat/hide spawn is on-shiftthe outcome of this is that you will start offering 110 cpu fora meatbut will end up offering at least 180 cpu forit 3 days later because you had 10 other crafters, who didn't knew better, trying to outbid each other.
When starting off in a profession, the Trade Boards are the worst possibly place to try to get large quantites of meat/hide. For obvious reasons. But guess most people fail to see that.
/sigh 
When people started to be able to make better ubese and better composite and when buffing really took off, this all changed. The said crazy prices for harvested organics seem to me more a result of crafters offering higher cpu offers, not the harvesters. Once the market value was established then the harvesters started setting high prices for their work. Several months ago, there was this feverish outbiding between three doctors for a very nice avian. I asked one of the doctors about the crazy offer bid. She told me that basically she needed to provide incentive for people to harvest for her. Grinding missions to get meat/hide isn't exactly fun.
Perhaps some of the newer people are unaware that prices weren't always so high. They might be unaware about the crafters' role in causing cpu prices to jack up. It didn't start because some hunter thought avian meat was worth 200 cpu. That was a doctor that decided that.
EdOWar wrote:
Something to keep in mind about buff packs, each buff pack only takes 20-30 Avian meat. Most of the rest of the resources are obtained from harvestors for only about 0.5 cpu (or less). For six buff packs (one for each stat), that's less than 200 Avian meat.
Slim Vargo, Corbantis