Business And Economy Archive
Thread: ECONOMY REBALANCE PROPOSAL: NPC Merchants & Central Markets
Yterbium
Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:00 am
#14
bluejanus wrote:
What does the term "fair market pricing" mean? The prices for items varies somewhat server to server. Is the fair market price the lowest price on Kettemoor? Or the midrange price on Bria?
For the NPC vendors to have any value, they would have to sell products that are at least competitive with some of the products that crafters make which is quite damaging to the crafting profession and crafting economy.
I don't see how fixed priced NPC shops that are always stocked and have endless amounts of credits to buy/sell goods is somehow an attribute of a "REAL economy". In the real world, consumers and sellers do not have endless capacity for buying or selling. Your proposal is simply your disgust at not being able to find a product for a low price. In your view, the economy is messed up because prices aren't low enough for you, so the whole system must be redone so you can spend the littlest amount that you can.
Fair market pricing would be based upon an economic unit of measure equal to a resource block necessary to produce a domestic product, just as in a real economy. The same way our petroleum-based economy works now, the resources would set the standard. That is assuming, of course, that it would work with the players the way things are right now. That I don't know about.
I didn't say anything about limitless buying power, or that wouldn't reflect a limited economy, would it? That was the problem in the first place, in creating a "player-driven" economy but doing so with an unlimited amount of funds available. It doesn't work.
As to your last comment, I actually toss around millions every day to help my friends and guildies, and have pretty much everything I need. If you knew anything about economy, you would know that it is precisely the people with money who make these determinations. Just because I have money doesn't mean I want to lavish some mid-level moron who has me by the barrel with the money I earned myself.
That is, after all, how those WITH money KEEP money.
Thanks for stopping by.
Yterbium
Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:26 am
#15
Treena_Daal wrote:
Yterbium wrote:
Heck, I would even say DUMP the merchant profession altogether, and put the bot spam commands and such in Artisan!
If any part of the Merchant profession needs to be dumped, it IS the spambots. Gods, I hate those things. I think just about everyone hates those things. Why can't they be /ignore'd?
LOL! Very good point, and excellent question. Just the ability to /addignore would be WONDERFUL!
I still haven't determined why the devs, in their ultimate wisdom, saw fit to unleash this evil upon us. 
Ryche_Mykola
Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:11 pm
#16
bluejanus wrote:I don't see how fixed priced NPC shops that are always stocked and have endless amounts of credits to buy/sell goods is somehow an attribute of a "REAL economy". In the real world, consumers and sellers do not have endless capacity for buying or selling. Your proposal is simply your disgust at not being able to find a product for a low price. In your view, the economy is messed up because prices aren't low enough for you, so the whole system must be redone so you can spend the littlest amount that you can.
I could not agree more with you.
ps...........He thinks armor is expensive now? Wait til he sees armor prices after the CU.
bluejanus
Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:38 pm
#17
Yterbium wrote:
Fair market pricing would be based upon an economic unit of measure equal to a resource block necessary to produce a domestic product, just as in a real economy. The same way our petroleum-based economy works now, the resources would set the standard. That is assuming, of course, that it would work with the players the way things are right now. That I don't know about.
I didn't say anything about limitless buying power, or that wouldn't reflect a limited economy, would it? That was the problem in the first place, in creating a "player-driven" economy but doing so with an unlimited amount of funds available. It doesn't work.
As to your last comment, I actually toss around millions every day to help my friends and guildies, and have pretty much everything I need. If you knew anything about economy, you would know that it is precisely the people with money who make these determinations. Just because I have money doesn't mean I want to lavish some mid-level moron who has me by the barrel with the money I earned myself.
That is, after all, how those WITH money KEEP money.
Thanks for stopping by.
In the real economy, prices have very little to do with the cost of production. In fact what is considered a fair market price for a product is usually far more than it cost to produce the product. This is because our economy is capitalistic. If the production is unprofitable, that production is not continued. Name me anything in the real world that is priced at or very closely to the cost of production and is profitable. There is no such product. Using your petroleum example, the price per barrel is approaching $60. Is this because it costs around $60 to produce a barrel? Heck no. People are panicking about the future availability of oil based on trouble in oil production or politicial/social issues in an oil producing country or degraded ability to refine crude oil. The only similar part about the oil-based economy to your idea of pricing is that a resource is involved.
Currently the NPC vendors have a limitless capacity to buy junk or loot and a limitless ability to give out credits. Since you did not say that those capacities and abilities should be modified, I assumed you were going to keep the endless capacity system.
I think it's self-evident that you do not know as much about economics as you seem to think you do. My last comment has nothing at all to do with you being rich or poor, but at your dissatisfaction of the pricing in reference to perceived value.
Message Edited by bluejanus on 04-10-2005 07:42 PM
TullFloyd
Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:41 pm
#19
I personaly think merchant ought to be incorperated into any crafting proffession. I started back in the day when you could place a vendor then drop those skills so you could go on to master what you wanted. I have almost completed my template and managed to keep my shop open. My problem is now that I'm using a merchant it can take several days to a week to get new product onto the vendor and the another 2 days to a week to get money from my sales. You may say but it's not that much to have a vendor but I'm CH/BE with some rifleman to help when stuff gets mad from poking it.
Flurry
Morarrana
Master Be
almost Master CH
M&M sales corellia 804 -5116
Morarrana
Master Be
almost Master CH
M&M sales corellia 804 -5116
bluejanus
Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:54 pm
#20
TullFloyd wrote:
I personaly think merchant ought to be incorperated into any crafting proffession. I started back in the day when you could place a vendor then drop those skills so you could go on to master what you wanted. I have almost completed my template and managed to keep my shop open. My problem is now that I'm using a merchant it can take several days to a week to get new product onto the vendor and the another 2 days to a week to get money from my sales. You may say but it's not that much to have a vendor but I'm CH/BE with some rifleman to help when stuff gets mad from poking it.
Flurry
Morarrana
Master Be
almost Master CH
M&M sales corellia 804 -5116
Well up to a few weeks ago, I would have completely disagreed with you, but SOE seems determined to gut the merchant profession, so perhaps a sp reduction or elimination is something to be considered.
bizondele
Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:02 pm
#21
Well done Bluejanus, your explanation is 100% correct and the poster while emotional and sincer is incorrect in almost everypoint he makes.
One additional thing I would like to point out that the poster said
No more wandering ALL OVER A DAMN PLANET looking for a suit of armor for HOURS, and then finally paying THRE QUARTERS OF A MILLION CREDITS for an average suit of armor because you are so sick of looking.
"THREE QUARETRS OF A MILLION CREDITS" is all relative to the how many credits are flooded into the economy and which % controls that amount. In SWG making credits is not exactly that difficult, sure if your reference point is the $US or the eurothen yes 3.75K is a substansial amount, however, in many ecnomies including this gamingoneTHREE QUARTERS OF A MILLION is really not that much. I don't think you are really putting much thought into the fact you can easily make 3.75K in a couple of hours in this game, how realistic is that?
I think you are also mistaken in your point "The NPC vendors would offer average or below average gear at fair market prices". I don't see this solving anything if crafters can continue to create better items, becuase of this players wil continue to pay a premium on these goods if it helps them get an advantage on another. In fact I know of or know several crafters who produce average to below average goods for cheaper and the truth is players like you don't want those goods and are willing to pay more for better. It's really the players who set the prices andhave the power to say no but they don't do it. So unless you make everything equal and nonplayer crafted then you will have to put up with the consumer's own worst enemy, themselves.
Message Edited by bizondele on 04-12-2005 04:03 PM
DarthRoe
Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:01 pm
#22
Merchants/crafters need MORE of a reason to play this game, not less.
This is exactly the type of proposal I'd expect from someone promoting that SOE makes a free skills server. How lazy are you?
This is exactly the type of proposal I'd expect from someone promoting that SOE makes a free skills server. How lazy are you?
Pawlin
Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:10 pm
#23
Tinkergirl wrote:
...It sounds like on your server, the prices for certain items have reached a flashpoint ...
Nope.On Bria trade forum first 2 pages there are a couple Armorsmiths selling full composite suits for 200k.
With vendor search it shouldn't be too hard to find the lowballer, undercutters and get a good deal even less than that I'd assume particulaly if you're not too worried about getting the best.
Tinkergirl
Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:25 am
#24
Dear Yterbium,
I understand that you're annoyed with the economy. That you believe that certain crafting professions - indeed, maybe all of them, are vastly overcharging for their goods.
They may well be.
However, you're still paying those prices for armour, for example. If you didn't want to pay those prices, you have several options available to you:
1. Become an armoursmith, undercut your competitors with 'reasonable' prices and feel justified.
2. Find a young armoursmith and help them train up, maybe invite them to a PA and encourage them to sell at 'reasonable' prices to your guildies in exchange for PA assistance in resourses.
3. Find a mature armoursmith and make some kind of mutual assistance arrangement. You seem to discount this one out of hand due to the 'unreasonable' people playing armoursmiths on your server.
4. Investigate the resourse game - maybe your armoursmiths are being crippled by the wooly hide trade? Maybe they can't get the resourses and you can? Is it just the armoursmiths fault?
5. Don't pay that much. Go without. Stage a price veto. IF THOSE ITEMS DON'T SELL, PRICES WILL DROP TO COST PRICE.
The simple fact is, that prices will rise as far as the market will hold. The 'cost' of something is purely what someone will pay for it.
Does it cost millions of pounds/dollars/etc to stretch some canvas over a frame and put paint on it? Hell no - but people will pay that much for a painting.
It sounds like on your server, the prices for certain items have reached a flashpoint - possibly people reading your rant (and it is a rant) will see the money to be made in armoursmithing, will go armoursmith for the 'easy' money, supply will increase, prices will drop and you'll be a happy munchkin.
Or not.
I understand that you're annoyed with the economy. That you believe that certain crafting professions - indeed, maybe all of them, are vastly overcharging for their goods.
They may well be.
However, you're still paying those prices for armour, for example. If you didn't want to pay those prices, you have several options available to you:
1. Become an armoursmith, undercut your competitors with 'reasonable' prices and feel justified.
2. Find a young armoursmith and help them train up, maybe invite them to a PA and encourage them to sell at 'reasonable' prices to your guildies in exchange for PA assistance in resourses.
3. Find a mature armoursmith and make some kind of mutual assistance arrangement. You seem to discount this one out of hand due to the 'unreasonable' people playing armoursmiths on your server.
4. Investigate the resourse game - maybe your armoursmiths are being crippled by the wooly hide trade? Maybe they can't get the resourses and you can? Is it just the armoursmiths fault?
5. Don't pay that much. Go without. Stage a price veto. IF THOSE ITEMS DON'T SELL, PRICES WILL DROP TO COST PRICE.
The simple fact is, that prices will rise as far as the market will hold. The 'cost' of something is purely what someone will pay for it.
Does it cost millions of pounds/dollars/etc to stretch some canvas over a frame and put paint on it? Hell no - but people will pay that much for a painting.
It sounds like on your server, the prices for certain items have reached a flashpoint - possibly people reading your rant (and it is a rant) will see the money to be made in armoursmithing, will go armoursmith for the 'easy' money, supply will increase, prices will drop and you'll be a happy munchkin.
Or not.
lordspam
Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:19 pm
#25
I dont think the server econimies are broke at all....
1) Prices are based on Population of server
Larger Population = More consumers, more players with more credits
2) Price of Resources/Production
Resrouces guide the intial cost of the production of an item
e.g. Ahazi server (heavly populated server)
current
you happen to be on quite possibly the heaviest populated server of the game
BaccaLaurean
Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:31 pm
#26
I think basically the intial post on "revamping" the markets in-game has been successfully shown to be unnecessary - unless the assumption is that the game *should* provide high-quality equipment, enhancements, etc. by default.
Here's an interesting case-in-point.
Buffs on Ahazi have historically sold for 10K with varying potency and duration. Lately, you see a range of 12K to 15K from docs in the starports. Since players need buffs to operate with comp armor, etc. buffs become an essential commodity in the current (pre-CU) economy.
Doing the math, let's say a complete (6 stats) set of really good buffs cost 85K per set. With an average of 30 hits per pack, this is a hard cost of about 2800cr per set of 6 stats. So selling at 10K per buff, the gross for those 30 hits is 300K - this marks a profit (factoring only the cost of the buff packs) of 215K per 30 complete set of buffs.
Why do players continue to pay 10K per buff when (if they knew the cost-breakdown) they might reasonably demand only to pay 5K or so? After all, this "discounted" price gives the Doc a small profit margin and should they want to increase their margins, they could try and acquire good resources cheaper and thereby lower their cost on a buff set. My example of 85K per set might be high - on Ahazi you often see price/set of 60K-70K, which just raises the profit margin for the Doc.
The reason players continue to pay 10K is that Docs charge 10K (this is a player-decision), either for historical reasons or because that's what players are used to paying. Maybe when buffs first came out (wasn't online then) buffs were crazy-expensive to make, or the resources were really good, and the elements of Bivoli, Doc clothing, droid, etc. etc. made that cost like 8K-9K per set. And while there are certainly other costs than just the buff packs, you would be hard-pressed to add all those things up (robe/droid are one-time for example) to get near 8K-9K hard cost for every buff set in the current economy.
As an example (and because my Doc toon was able to get great buffs at clearance prices), I decided to start selling buffs exclusively at 5K per set of 6 stats. These were at or within 50pts of the "standard" of around 2500 for 3+ hours. I used bivoli and my robe, droid, etc. on every buff.
You can guess what happened: Players gravitated towards my Doc. Other Docs kept spamming 10K, 12K and even 15K in the face of my 5K offering. I had lines of 10-15 people at peak times. The other docs usually got customers when my line was so long that someone didn't want to wait. Or probably they were repeat customers of that specific Doc. But the general marketplace was "dominated" by my 5K-slinging Doc.
The most interesting thing? People regularly complimented me on how great my buffs were (same as all the others) and how my prices were really great. Many people asked " How can you make any money? You're giving these away. " The fact of the matter was that my cost per set was less than 2K, so why charge 10K? Or god-forbid 15K? Sure, I could have hyper-inflated my profit and made BANK. But why? Players looked for me - I got all kinds of tells as soon as I logged in, where was I, could I get them a buff. The concept of a 5K buff was at first nearly insane.
After about 2 weeks of solid buffing at 5K per set, there started to be several other Docs selling buffs at 5K as well. In effect, my experiment had (to a degree) changed the marketplace. Why? Because I was apparently the best deal in town. In reality, I was making what I felt was a decent profit on a commodity which is essential to other players. This resulted in repeat business and a reputation of quality and respectibility in the market. But I was selling the same thing the other docs were selling.
And guess what, when my Doc wasn't there other Docs were selling at 10K, 12K, 15K because that's what they chose to offer (another hallmark of the player-economy). Players were buying them - but the number of tells I got when I logged in told me that people had in their heads the concept of a 5K buff.
This whole example is to illustrate the point that the SWG player-economy is just that, a player economy. Every toon can make a change if they're willing to do so - the market will respond accordingly. And after a while, with enough players making the change, a new standard emerges.
BaccaLaurean
The Bacca Shop | Mos Eisley 2597 -4473 (Ahazi)