CUEmu - Thread Posts

PoetDancer

Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:55 pm

This is a repost from the dancer forum. I am looking for a system that can create a suitable platform for performance based professions, encourages the creative application of talent, and rewards amusing, live played, entertainers. I have found that this forum is filled with players concerned with interdependency, and I welcome your suggestions.

As we may know, BF is going to be removed from the game, on the promise that we become an "enhancement only group of providers." My concern is if this will create opportunities for active players, or merely give guilds and players an incentive to create automated alts.

I have done all I could to preserve the simple, intuitive system that I had at launch, and I had for a brief moment after the CU.

The changes are on Test Centre. They are going in without change.

So the only thing I can do right now is to use all of my knowledge gained from the unique features of this class to resurrect a small semblance of the game we had, and how it ideally operated.

As of Patch 20, we will have one function: to give the current inspiration buff we all can duplicate. In a sense, this is like BF healing. But there are some important differences:

1) The game we as entertainers played in terms of BF healing was to entertain the patron for a time that neither we, nor they, had direct knowledge of. With inspiration buffs, the time needed to gain them is short, and the patron has full knowledge of when it is fully gained.

2) The buff is by its nature "prep time." Others have made the argument that the buffs need not be seen as prep time, but rather, downtime. However, nobody gains something just to /logoff. They want to use it. And moreover, when one runs an unattended alt, one does not need to even take any mind to "getting a show when the show is available." They will have a show that is always available.

3) Need is not an objective criteria. It is a highly subjective one. If a player wants to gain another skillbox,the playermay very well believe it is the case that they need that extra 10%, and feel a sense of entitlement to it. Nobody needed mind buffs to do even rather high level PvE missions. However, this did not resonate with those who felt they needed the extra mind pool. Such can be said of all enhancements, or positive reiforcements. As Omiday might say: "If a dancer can give a +1 to experimentation, then the weaponsmith feels gimped if he cannot have it."

4) Unattendance is still alive and well, and is even facilitated with /covercharge. And moreover, they don't even give the patron the option of not tipping it for its boring performance. The /covercharge is still applicable, even before the patron is in any position to be bored. I have no reason to believe at this point that it will be any different.

Now, having said this. Let us turn to the possibilities of future draws:

1) I am concerned that buffs for non-combat only will not give us many patrons. It seems to me that a highly specialized and profession-specific package cuts out the potential market considerably in terms of:

a) The numbers of players online at a given time.

and

b) The number of players within the small demographic that could really use what we offer consistently, and at all hours.

Battle fatigue was a mechanic that impacted a great many players, and for a great many reasons. Simply by entering into combat, it accrued. Thus, what resulted was a constant influx of a diverse clientele at any hour an entertainer may be on. But with profession-specific buffs, the players who could use it are limited to a very few professions, and for rather specific and targeted reasons. An armoursmith only needs an assembly bonus if he or she is assembling. A scout only needs a harvesting bonus if the are harvesting, etc. As a result, the problem I see is that there will simply be too many entertainers for too exclusive a clientele. Which means we will have very few opportunities to entertain.

2) The fact that these profession-specific buffs are non-combat, profession specific, and specialized by no means does not make it any less tempting to lay a 24/7 alt, and in fact, encourages it. Because crafters and other non-combat professions do not want to wait to find an entertainer. They want the bonus when they are in a position to start crafting. So rather than try to track one of us down, it seems to me a large guild or player city may see the utility in creating an entertainer, or many entertainers,to cycle through all the routines in order to give the players what they want, when they want, where they want, and for the price they want (free).

3) The developers could put in many safeguards, protocols, and mechanics to ensure an active application, but we have to remember that the more they create these things, the less the procedure resembles a "positive interaction," and the more it looks like a "negative interaction." Mind buffs under the old rules were "gaining a good thing." But it actually became a very tedious operation for both patrons and performers. Moreover, even if the buffbots use third party applications, like a joystick, or autoclicker, which is technically a violation of the EULA, Customer Service has shown very little interest in cracking down on unattended play. It is my belief, unfortunately, that AFK and unattended buffboting will never be seen as an illegal act, and CS has neither the will, the budget, nor the means to enforce a prohibition against it, in any form.

As you can see, BF will be a very, very difficult mechanic to duplicate. Any system that is designed to replace it must do the following:

1) Create a broad, inter-profession desire that must be attended to with some frequency to ensure a steady flow of patrons into the cantinas, at all hours.

2) Require a long enough stay to give us some sort of platform to differentiate us from other performers, so we have some sort of "amusement value incentive" to do more than just set a macro, go, and let /covercharge earn the credits.

3) Make these things readily available so we cannot be accused of "preventing another's play," knowing full well that even a mere 10% increase on XP gained can be interpreted as a hidrence if it is not made available according to the patron's view of things.

4) Let the natural effect of "boredom" with unattended and semi-active characters (and rest assured, they will become a factor again, unfortunately) create an opportunity for us to earn the patron's favour, whether or not we are /watched by them.

So there you have it. I am done fighting, but Iwould rather nothave this profession transformed into a poor copy of "AFK starport buffing doctors." I hope this post of my analysis of the situation will be deemed "constructive" by those who think themselves in charge of such things. If we are to eliminate BF, then we must have some sort of system that duplicates what it did, and in a manner that keeps this a performance profession, and not just a poor reflection of doctor.

Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."

DarkDigital

Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:50 am

#2

That was very thought out and well done, I too hope they take note.

PoetDancer

Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:32 am

#3

Thank you for your support. My mind has been on other things these past few days, but I am wondering if Paiwan, Phaelyn, and all the other SWG economic minds can apply their thoughts to the situation, and come up with things that can provide a platform to showcase our talents as performers. When we think of draws to the cantina, we inevitably think of what we as performers would enjoy, but we tend to not look at the situation from the audience's perspective.

Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."

OldManDog

Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:20 pm

#4

After reading through your orginal post a few times over, I seem to get stuck on the hidden agenda, which from my point of view is that you're going to have to move aroundrather than to be found to entertain, or be pennieless because noone will seek you out & that in your opinion it's not acceptable that you change your playstyles to make $, like picking up some scout so you can make a fancy camp and entertain near POIs, or go on hunting parties and sell some hides/bones, picking up 0004 artisan and doing some mining.

level1, Master Artisan + MasterMerchant + Master Elite = 39 free skill points (roughly)

15 of those skill points for novice entertainer = Zero Chance for YOU to entertain, aka making Credits?

So if you think your clientell is is only non-com, I'd say you're over estimating yourself

(I know since the CU mine has picked up 0030 entertainer and can givehimselfan insperation buff, opposed to using my wife's master ME/MID/DE who'safk most of the time in"The Cantina" which is 800m away?, Im lazy and Im sure you can guess I shake my booty for a minute. )

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PoetDancer

Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:50 pm

#5

So then, what would you suggest to have us provide to replace BF?

If it requires that we travel to where the patrons are, then so be it. But frankly, I never really thought the patrons who want entertainment really ever wanted that from us. Rather, it seems to me they dislike the mobile nature of entertainers, and see it as a reason to create a static, unattended alt.

Because right now, nobody knows what will become of us. That's up to the developers, and right now they are grasping for ideas to enable entertaiment to be an active, viable career choice for players. The entertainers are trying to come up with ideas for draws that they think the audience may enjoy (bonus to assembly, etc), but I think this should be left to be decided by those who are outside of the profession to help design.

Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."

Flatfingers

Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:27 am

#6

A very thoughtful post, as always, PoetDancer.

I agree generally with your concerns. I'm not a particularly social player, but it's important that SWG offer appropriate features to attract those who are. The social players are crucial to creating a sense of community in SWG. Without them, SWG is just another game to be beaten and forgotten.

So I'm concerned at seeing Battle Fatigue being eliminated with no equivalent replacement. This was the feature that made entertainers a required part of the SWG community (at least to combat players). What is the value of an entertainer to other players now?

Like you, I think the approach of making inspiration buffs profession-specific will lead to problems. I discussed this at length in one of the early threads on the subject of non-combat inspiration buffs, but to recapitulate it briefly here: I'd rather see "universal" inspiration buffs that can be applied to any player, rather than buffs that can only be applied to certain players.

For one thing, having to create 30+ different inspiration buffs is likely to take more time and effort to get right than 5-10 universal buffs. For another thing, if an entertainer can't know/give all possible inspiration buffs, their value will depend on whether those who randomly happen to wander into a cantina are of the "right" profession. On the other hand, if every entertainer knows all inspirations buffs, then what's to distinguish one entertainer from another?

Given this, it seems to me that universal inspiration buffs are a better choice. That way Entertainers and Dancers and Musicians and Image Designers can all have distinct buffs, but each can apply their available buffs to anyone who walks in the door.

As for a mechanism for doing this that doesn't send us right back to the days of mindless buffbots, how about making the inspiration system work like skill teaching?

The player who wants an inspiration will need to listen to or watch the entertainer, then click on a radial option on that entertainer reading something like "Request Inspiration". The entertainer will then see a pick list of inspirations (only one of which may be active at a time), and will ask the player which inspiration to apply. The player will respond; the entertainer will click on the name of that inspiration; and the inspiration will be applied (maybe instantly, maybe after several minutes).

This approach has the advantage of requiring live interaction between players, so entertainers will need to be ATK to be valued. It also could encourage conversation between entertainers and other players. ("What does the Empathy inspiration do?")

(And note that this system would still work nicely even if inspirations are made profession-specific. Instead of listing all inspirations, only those that would be effective for a player given his/her known skills would be listed for the entertainer to click on.)

Would this system be acceptable to entertainers? What about to those who want to interact with entertainers?

Is there some other ability besides inspiration buffs that entertainers ought to have that would increase their value to other players without limiting the abilities of other players? What about new roleplaying features, or better uses for theaters?

--Flatfingers

Flatfingers' Excessively Long List of Ideas for SWG

bluejanus

Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:40 pm

#7

Good post, but this isn't exactly on topic with this forum.

Isander Aperin - Kettemoor Master Architect (home: Serenity, Naboo)

Structures vendor in the HorkCo Shop near Coronet, Corellia (CLOSED)

Structures vendors in the Mos Mesric Mall near Mos Espa, Tatooine (CLOSED)

Structures, jedi kit, crafting station and resource vendors in Serenity near Kaadara, Naboo (CLOSED)

Flatfingers

Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:04 pm

#8

bluejanus wrote:
Good post, but this isn't exactly on topic with this forum.

Well, it is if we're considering ways to compensate entertainers for their services.

Of course, first we need to know what those services are/should be/will be so that we can put a price tag on them....

--Flatfingers

PoetDancer

Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:20 pm

#9

bluejanus wrote:
Good post, but this isn't exactly on topic with this forum.

Its an economic issue. So I have really no knowledge of what forum would be more applicable than this one.

We in our own profession forums are not especially qualified to determine what it may take to get you in the door. We know what to do when you get there (put on a show), but we are not actually qualified to determine for you all what you will want.

Madame Sirii Ajaan
August 2003-September 15, 2005
"There is a difference between being /watched and being WATCHED."

Flatfingers

Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:03 pm

#10

Hi, Marcolo -- welcome to SWG, and to the forums!

Feel free to jump in on any subject that interests you. One word of advice: you might want to take a while to just lurk on any threads related to Jedi -- it's a pretty hot subject right now, and even the "experts" are bonking each other over the head about What Must Be Done.

With respect to maintaining the value of different playstyles within SWG, I'm glad to hear you say you appreciate this, too. I've got nothing against fighting games, but there's room for games that can be more, too, and I think SWG ought to be one of those games. (There are others around here who feel the same way; you'll probably bump into them if you stick around for a while.)

I like your idea for fatigue. I think it would be something that could apply to all players (rather than just Battle Fatigue for combat players), which would significantly increase the value of entertainers in SWG. Care would have to be taken that mental fatigue not hit crafters (who are big users of Mind points) much harder than other players (such as healers and combatants). But we could probably make that work.

However, there are some things that suggest we may not see this concept implemented, at least not in exactly the way you propose. (Note: What follows is just opinion, so feel free to disagree.)

1. The developers are unlikely to add a kind of fatigue back to the game immediately after making changes to remove Battle Fatigue.

2. I can't give you an exact quote, but I seem to recall a developer saying some time back that it was never intended that entertainers have any kind of active role in combat -- that would make them too much like the "Bard" class in RPGs like D&D and EverQuest. However, given the way features from EQ/EQ2 have been weaseling their way into SWG recently (levels, explicit "root" and "snare" functions, procs, etc.), maybe ~~Bards~~ Combat Entertainers are inevitable.

3. If there's no benefit to entertainers doing their thing in cantinas (because they're allowed to join hunting parties), what's the point of cantinas? (A question that also applies to theaters, now that I think about it....) Is there some useful feature that entertainers could be given that becomes more powerful/effective/fun when used in cantinas?

Again, this is purely opinion on my part, but it seems to me that the entertainer professions are interesting to peopleto the degree that they're more about socializing than aboutviolence or token-collectingor crafting. (For more on this kind of player styleanalysis, check outthe legendary Richard Bartle's Players Who Suit MUDs essay.)If that's true, then to help promote the entertainer playstyle our best bet would be to think of abilities that are:

fun for socializers, and

useful to all other playstyles

in that order of importance. Those priorities should produce abilities that would help to restore the value of being an entertainer in SWG by attracting more players who enjoy and are good at socialization and story and roleplaying and other actions that help to build and maintain strong communities.

And just so this thread remains pertinent to Business and Economy (rather than Core Systems, where I admit it really belongs now), we also ought to consider how any new fun commmunity-building ability is also useful enough to other players that they'd be willing to pay entertainers for it.

Whoever said game design was easy?

--Flatfingers

Flatfingers' Excessively Long List of Ideas for SWG

Message Edited by Flatfingers on 07-13-2005 03:06 PM

Marcolo

Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:05 pm

#11

Flatfingers, thank you for the welcome!

Its always a little scary to jump into a forum and not be established in the community. There are a lot of people on here that have been playing for years, and it can be quite intimidating. But, they have been quite nice in the game ... and now here.

Just to repond to your points (and expand my thoughts a bit more clearly):

1. The developers are unlikely to add a kind of fatigue back to the game immediately after making changes to remove Battle Fatigue.

I have to agree with you on this one.

2. I can't give you an exact quote, but I seem to recall a developer saying some time back that it was never intended that entertainers have any kind of active role in combat -- that would make them too much like the "Bard" class in RPGs like D&D and EverQuest. However, given the way features from EQ/EQ2 have been weaseling their way into SWG recently (levels, explicit "root" and "snare" functions, procs, etc.), maybe Bards Combat Entertainers are inevitable.

And I would agree with the developer on this one. My vision was more along the line of Jabba bringing his entertainers on the barge with him. They don't fight, you have some great music and dancing when camp is set up. Saves you and your group the trouble of running back to town. The disadvantage that you have a non-combatant with you in your group taking a 'valuable' combat slot. Not to say they couldn't be multi-profession. But I believe, the entertaining skills should be limited to camp, inside a town/city, or a structure.

3. If there's no benefit to entertainers doing their thing in cantinas (because they're allowed to join hunting parties), what's the point of cantinas? (A question that also applies to theaters, now that I think about it....) Is there some useful feature that entertainers could be given that becomes more powerful/effective/fun when used in cantinas?

I am with you on this one as well. Certain structures (such as cantinas) should add to the effectiveness of the entertainer skill. As much as we all like a harmonica around a campfire or a street entertainer, they are nothing like going to going to the club, arena, theatre, or race track. Certain skills (such as flourishes) may require the equipment that can only be found in entertainment establishments (such as cantinas or theatres.)

Hmmm ... female Twi'lek Cheerleaders at a Swoop/Pod Race *smile*

Okay .. so getting this back to business. Here are a few ideas:

Swoop/Pod races ... I really like that one. (Who doesn't want cheerleaders?)

Contracts with theatres/cantinas. Bring in a headliner entertainer for certain hours.

Arenas for Gladiatorial combat. (More cheerleaders!)

Concerts

And, although I am sure the company/developers would have concerns, I would like to see a couple of options that I think could really add to the uniqueness of entertainers:

Ability for Musicians to stream custom music to other players, so we don't have to hear the same canned stuff. Perhaps, Musicians could earn faction points that could be spent on aquiring songs from a library. Perhaps, even some of the music requires a group of musicians to allow it to be streamed. And in an extreme case, making their own music.

A tool that would allow Master Dancers to create their own custom dance moves.

A tool for flourishes that would allow for creating custom flourishes.

The ability for entertainers with creature handling to do circus tricks.

Obviously, I could go crazy with all this. And some of this already exists in a limited form (like tacking together a string of dance types or flourishes.) But by opening it up wider, I think you would have a fair number of people that would show up to shows and races just for the fun of seeing them, hanging out with their friends, and easing away their fatigue. I'd certainly spend some hard earned credits on that.

-Marcolo

Flatfingers

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:17 pm

#12

Marcolo wrote:

Its always a little scary to jump into a forum and not be established in the community. There are a lot of people on here that have been playing for years, and it can be quite intimidating. But, they have been quite nice in the game ... and now here.

I know what you mean. I tend to stay in lurk mode for a while, but eventuallyI can't stand it any longer and start writing novel-length suggestions for new features.

The folks here follow the usual range: some unhappy, a few shining lights, most who just feel passionate about wanting a fun experience in the Star Wars universe. You'll figure out who's who in no time.

Just to repond to your points (and expand my thoughts a bit more clearly):

My vision was more along the line of Jabba bringing his entertainers on the barge with him. They don't fight, you have some great music and dancing when camp is set up.

Doh! My bad; I misunderstood you. Thanks for the clarification.

Icould for for this feature, although like you I think some way would have to be found to keep them from dying like consumptive mayflies when the blasters come out. And I do still have a very, very strong suspicion that there would be a lot of calls for these entertainers to have some kind of combat abilities (turning them into Bards). I'd rather that didn't happen; I like the fact that SWG isn't just an EQ engine with aStar Wars skin.

But maybe there's a good Star Wars-y way to let entertainers get out of the house from time to time without painting bullseyes on their backs.

Certain structures (such as cantinas) should add to the effectiveness of the entertainer skill. As much as we all like a harmonica around a campfire or a street entertainer, they are nothing like going to going to the club, arena, theatre, or race track. Certain skills (such as flourishes) may require the equipment that can only be found in entertainment establishments (such as cantinas or theatres.)

Exactly -- that's how I was thinking of this, too. Rather than merely applying some bonus for entertaining in a cantina/theater/arena/camp or on a yacht, why not give entertainersactive features thatencourage them to entertain there (because it's more fun)? Maybe the bartenders give free drinks every so often as long as the music's playing....

Hmmm ... female Twi'lek Cheerleaders at a Swoop/Pod Race *smile*

Hey! No distractions!

Swoop/Pod races ... I really like that one. (Who doesn't want cheerleaders?)

I could go for this. It's a little sad that swoop races are such solitary events. What if having cheerlea- I mean,entertainers doing their thing near the starting pointcould give all racers a slight speed boost? (Heh.)

This would beanother opportunity for economic advantage, by the way: spectators== tips!

Contracts with theatres/cantinas. Bring in a headliner entertainer for certain hours.

Hmm. Define "headliner." If you dare.

As for contracts... that's an intriguing idea. It's actually something we can do now in an informal way, but it would be fun to be able to create a more formal contract to provide entertainment services as a long-term business relationship.

May I interest you in aformal contract system I designed? /evilgrin(People are screaming at you, "Run! Run for your life!" I've only been pushing this idea for nearly two years now....)

Player Contracts: A Design Document

Player Contracts: The Short Version

Arenas for Gladiatorial combat. (More cheerleaders!)

This is something we've been tossing back and forth for a while now. (Arenas, that is, not cheerleaders.) It's an idea that everyone seems to like; we just need to figure out the right feature set.

Reicine came up with a good set of suggestions recently for what he called the Geonosian Arenas. You might find something you like there.

Concerts

Another good idea that needs to have some features worked out. Any ideas?

You also mentioned some other interesting possibilities. I won't go into all of them (whew!), but one in particular is ringing a lot of bells around here lately:

The ability for entertainers with creature handling to do circus tricks.

What's interesting about this isn't the specific suggestion (although it's a cool idea), but rather the deeper notion that certain abilities would only be available by having certain mixtures of cross-profession skills.

On the positive side, this could significantly extend the interest level in trying different professions, which is something the developers have always been interested in promoting. (It is still one of the key unique features of SWG compared to other MMOGs... so far.)

On the negative side, think about how many new abilities you'd have to come up with if you were to be "fair" to everyone so that every possiblecombination of two skills offered a special cross-profession ability. Assuming 34 professions, that's 561new abilities (33 + 32 + ...)that would have to be imagined and implemented. Ouch.

Is there some other way this could be done fairly without combinatorial overload?

I think you would have a fair number of people that would show up to shows and races just for the fun of seeing them, hanging out with their friends, and easing away their fatigue. I'd certainly spend some hard earned credits on that.

Likewise. In fact, maybe that's how we need to be thinking about this.

Hey, people: What entertainer improvements to you would be willing to tip them 10,000 credits for?

--Flatfingers

Flatfingers' Excessively Long List of Ideas for SWG

bluejanus

Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:29 pm

#13

Flatfingers wrote:

bluejanus wrote:
Good post, but this isn't exactly on topic with this forum.

Well, it is if we're considering ways to compensate entertainers for their services.

Of course, first we need to know what those services are/should be/will be so that we can put a price tag on them....

--Flatfingers

Post is more about the dynamics of being a dancer than the compensation.

Isander Aperin - Kettemoor Master Architect (home: Serenity, Naboo)

Structures vendor in the HorkCo Shop near Coronet, Corellia (CLOSED)

Structures vendors in the Mos Mesric Mall near Mos Espa, Tatooine (CLOSED)

Structures, jedi kit, crafting station and resource vendors in Serenity near Kaadara, Naboo (CLOSED)

Business And Economy Archive

Thread: A Replacement for BF. A Call for a Draw