Brawler Archive
Thread: ALTERNATIVE to melee damage modifiers vs.....
Please read with an open mind, I'm floating this idea in a few forums, and would love to get some brawler reactions to what I believe is the real problem behind brawler combat, and how these suicidal melee damage mods don't solve it.
Brawlers have problems with them, problems which need solving. But these ridiculous damage mods don't solve those problems, and only end up causing grief to the ranged combatants on the receiving end. I shall analyze why the damage modifiers do NOT solve the problems, and present a better solution that doesn't involve making any classes useless cannon fodder that folds in one hit because it happens to be carrying the wrong weapon at the time.
BTW, when I talk about speed here, I mean movement speed, not fire rate.
Let's consider first a simple argument of reasoning and realism. Irrelevant perhaps in game terms, but it appeals to some people's sense of logic. If I punch you in the face, what weapon you are holding won't affect how much it hurts, ie, how much damage you receive. It's still a punch in the face whether you're holding a rifle, a pistol, or a stuffed bunny rabbit. However, depending in fact on what you are carrying, it may affect both the ease of which it is to make a contacting blow on you, in addition to the ease of which you can accurately hit others. A long-barreled sniper rifle will be much harder to aim at close range than a pistol, a fact which IS represented in the game.
However, it does make sense that certain professions could acquire defensive mods that reduce damage somewhat. Perhaps your training imparted in you a certain resilience against pain, in which case it may make sense that you are taking less damage. However, wielding a rifle does not impart a "pansy factor", that makes you very vulnerable to pain. So defensive modifiers are reasonable, but vulnerability modifiers are not.
Let's depart from real life and wander into game terms, which are arguably more important. What is extra melee damage supposed to solve, and how does it not. Primary brawler issue is probably kiting. This is some people's justification for melee damage bonuses, to help offset this. I argue that it is insufficient, because if you can't catch your opponent, the ability to inflict additional damage won't help you at all.
Some argue that the damage modifiers are justified in order to allow brawlers to fight on even terms when they are close. In this respect I say that it is unnecessary, because a brawler who actually IS fighting toe to toe with someone will almost always beat them, in "ideal" conditions. Any brawler profession that can't do so is in need of buffing. Fencer is possibly a good example.
The issue that all brawlers have is kiting. However even a 10x damage mod will not stop kiting. If you can't catch your enemy, it doesn't matter if you have the Pike of the DeathStar. You will still lose.
I propose the dropping of all of these silly melee damage modifiers. Instead help brawlers in ways that will actually work. We're half way there, in that at 0m brawlers are well past most ranged weapon's ideal ranges, and thusly are very difficult to hit. The other half of this equation is to impose a speed penalty on ranged fighters who are currently in combat. The numbers are up to the devs here obviously, but the theories are the same. Perhaps a 25% movement penalty to a ranged attacker who is marked as in combat status. Now, you can add possibly minor reductions to this in the form of stats for certain elite professions. Mainly I'm thinking of carbines since historically a carbine is intended to be a weapon used on the move, and they could use a bit of their own love anyway.
Ok, so what about...
... rifleman? Obviously hurt most by this implementation, but at the same time vastly better off than with that ridiculous 2.5x modifier. If they have help, they still have a chance here, but alone they are most assuredly screwed unless the gods smile on them and you mistake their rifle for a drinking straw.
... carbineers? They still suffer a nasty accuracy penalty close up, even if not as bad as riflemen. I suggest that they have reduced speed penalties because that fits in with what a carbine is, but they can still be caught like any other. The speed penalty reductions for them should be quite minor. Again, once your close, they're better off than rifles, but not by much.
... pistoleers? The closest thing to close range marksman. Better off than either of the previous two, but endangered by the lack of armor piercing weapons. I'd suggest armor to give them a "run" for their money. Heheheh.
... bounty hunters? The "best of the best" and always dangerous. Versatile to boot, which gives them flexibility in dealing with you. Case by case depending on what they are wielding.
... commandos? A touchier situation since their ideal range is similar to a brawler's. Should be treated with caution, but as a hybrid master marksman combat profession, I don't think that should be in question. I would take the word heavy in heavy weapons and treat it very literally here. Whereas a normal ranged combatant would incur, in theory, a 25% speed reduction, anyone wielding a heavy weapon should incur a 30-35% speed reduction. NOT A 90% ADDITIONAL SPEED REDUCTION! SWG likes to go overboard, rather than tweaking. I hate that... This will make them easier to catch. Of course a brawler will ask why they want to catch them if they'll just get toasted. Ahh, but here is where it all ties together. Commandos have two very big things against them. Piss poor accuracy and piss poor speed. A commando can TRY to kite you, but at the much increased accuracy penalty incurred. Yeah, he still has the chance of hitting you and killing you, but if you expect to never die in PvP, then you can go covert now. Now what occurs is what I call the "window of opportunity", a direct result of his lacking speed. A brawler has at LEAST 9 seconds to kill the commando in, without fear of retribution. A commando is even slower here than normal ranged, and thus the brawler reaches him earlier in that window, and can inflict more damage during that window, making the kill all the more likely.
Now this... is what I call balance. Not the ridiculously insulting huge damage modifiers, but rather ideal ranges and patterns of behavior consistent with how it is logical for these weapons to actually behave. Riflemen, great immobile and at range(they need more accuracy bonuses btw), Pistols, lacking any great weaknesses but also lacking armor piercing, Carbines falling between those two. Bounty Hunters with their impressive versatility. Commandos with their incredible power but the risks that go with it, and Brawlers getting in your face and beating the living crap out of you, all the while screaming that you can run but not hide... All without those cursed damage mods.
Feel free to comment.
... rifleman? Obviously hurt most by this implementation, but at the same time vastly better off than with that ridiculous 2.5x modifier. If they have help, they still have a chance here, but alone they are most assuredly screwed unless the gods smile on them and you mistake their rifle for a drinking straw.
As a rifleman, I would glady trade our 2.5x melee modifier for a realistic combat model. Stop kiting, it's ridiculous. I stop, kneel, aim, shoot, get up, run, fire my rifle over my back until it's dead !?! What is that ?
Don't let people shoot while running. You can run from brawlers. Or you can shoot. But in no way can you do both at the same time.
The reason for the damage modifiers is pretty simple.
A while back, I believe in regards to a TKA complaint about kiting.. A dev stated that the whole idea is that if we catch them, it's a massacre.. But if we can't.. That's the penalty of our strength.
I can tell you now.. Since they fixed Warcry2 again, ranged have kinda been a joke if I get close at all..
BH Spamming eye shot? Warcry 2 he's a veggie for 20s.. as soon as that ends KD2.. switch to Power Hammer.. Mindhit2.. switch to Gaderiffi baton and dizzy then when he stands lunge..
=P It's very effective.