Brawler Archive

So I've been thinking about the whole range vs. melee combat balance issue. As a guy who started as a brawler and loves his unarmed specialization dearly, I've gotta say I'm very dissapointed in the fact that we can't seem to figure out how to make close combat a threat to kiting ranged attackers. Then it hit me; the reason that everything seems so unbalanced and the issue of balance itself seems unprecedented is simple. We, the up-close and personal fighters, are pretty much an untested variable in the Star Wars universe.

Now, I haven't read every book that's ever been written with a Star Wars license, not even close. I'm a fan of the movies though (sure, the new ones suck a little, but that's another topic for discussion), and when I think Star Wars, I think lasers and lightsabers. So when I picked up Galaxies I was a little surprised (not in a bad way, mind you) to find that they had included not only unarmed fighting, but also actual swordfighting with real, honest to goodness bladed weapons. Now, indulge me for a moment. The only time you see any hand to hand (or blade to blade) combat in the entire series, or at least thefew timesI can thinkof arebar fights (although the only one really included was with a lightsaber) and of course the one-on-one Jedi duels. You never really see a guy with a sword (or anything comparable) trying to kill the guy holding a blaster (think Indiana Jones here). In fact, the only people I remember seeing with close quarters weapons (Jedi excluded) were the polearm wielding dudes in Jabba's palace (pig-like guards, no idea what they're called). Yet when the real fighting begins, they run or grab blasters. Ironic, no?

The only evidence of a person going without any ranged support purposely is found in Jedi and the Teras Kasi. Each of these dealt with blaster fire in its own way, the Jedi through deflection and the TKAs through some sort of supernatural dodge factor. As a side note,I don't think it should be so easy for a player to become a TKA (some harder trials to discourage people, perhaps), and that those willing to undertake it should be rewarded with some viability against kiters. If there are any organizations or heroes famous for their blades, I've never heard of them (though I'm sure they'll come out of the woodwork now), and I can't think of any famous melee classes at all besides these two.

So, as a result, it kind of makes sense why we're so broken (although this does not excuse the problem), because, much like Commandos, the other woefully broken beyond all reason class, there's just no accounting for our style of fighting in the general universe of SW, and certainly no account of how we're supposed to resist blaster fire. My advice? Sell out and learn to use a pistol for PvP until the devs figure out some ingenious fix. Or get incapped and whine about it. Frankly, I don't have the patience for brawler...

What about Knights of the Old Republic? In that game, blasters stink. The way IT SHOULD BE

Melle combat is the best, its cool, you have more honor , and you're a heck of alot more brave. Stupid marksmen. There only Marksmen because they want to be 1337 d00dz and pwn us all with the're u3br BH skillz.

I mean come on, doesnt everyone think that being a brawler is at least the coolest? Why do so many take marksmen? To be 1337 ub3r d00dz, thats why. If brawler and marksmen were exactly equal, and a brawler had JUST as good a chance as a marksmen in cmbat, then i think almost all people would be brawler.

Well, yah, brawlers have more honor and all that, but the point is that, as we have seen, honor counts for little in the SW universe. Han Solo, one of the protagonists of the series, was the master of dirty dealing, sucker punch shooting, and other such "dirty" tricks. Sure, being a brawler is honorable or whatever, and probably cooler in most people's eyes due to the high levels of skill it implies (far more than that required to shoot straight), but save honor for EQ or some other medieval european-esque setting that uses arrows instead of blaster bolts. Point is, Star Wars is a cutthroat universe, and so the honor and fair play inherent in a brawler's style (well, most of them anyway) really gives us a disadvantage naturally in such a universe (and that's before we factor in all the bugs, especially faulty LOS checks). People take marksman not only cause it is easier to go through the game (I've begun to dabble in pistoleer just to make missions easier, cuase I need the cash), but also because it represents to them the average citizen of the SW universe. After all, the marksman to brawler ratio in the general series has to be about 2 million to 1, being conservative. Brawling is for barfights. Oh, and as for KOTOR, I think Jedi will kick marksman ass. When dark jedi PCs start showing up and PKing everything in sight, all the TKAs and such will really begin to shine. Alas, that day is far off, or so the devs would have us think.

you forgot one Gravyboat227. If you look in the movies most of jabbas guards have a vibero lance or axe, not to mention the royal imperial guards use force pikes.

sw has always had alot of melee tech stuff like vibero weapons, mono blades (single molecyle edge weapons ) and alot more.

On the ranged vs. melee I think it's fine as it is a melee figher is supposed to be at a nasty disatvange compared to ranged. like the old saying goes "don't bring a knife to a gun fight"

and yes I use ranged and yes I use melee, rifles and poolarms to be exate

doh missed you pigman comment /blush sorry

*wishes for an edit button*

You know, I really hadn't thought of this when I first posted, but in a way this whole thing gives us an insight into what a brawler's strengths should really be. Brawlers (being defined as a non-Jedi melee fighting class) are really good at fighting indoors. As Council_member said, it's a BAD idea to whip out a gun when you're backed into a corner, or just a few feet away from your opponent in general. Other than the pistoleer's melee defense line (basically becoming a brawler with a pistol-shaped club), marksmen really don't have a chance if you can get any sort of hold on them. Now, our problem, of course, and the real root of the whole imbalance, is the inability to get close enough to touch them. So, we do seem to be built for barfights, just likeactual brawlers would be.

Then, of course, we say that a guy with a CDEF pistol who isn't even a marksman (let's say an apprentice artisan) shouldn't be able to kill uswithout breaking a sweat, as is currently possible. This is true, but cannot be addressed, as the devs obviously feel that even the least combat-minded class needs to be able to defend itself against aggressive mobs and the like. Our real issue is that, regardless of who's wielding the gun, we should be able to close the distance on them (without having to burst run), or at least have some hope of doing so. Frankly, we need to be faster than them. Like the top of the line mobs that chase down all those kiting marksmen (a bunch of narglatches got me today, and I was burst-kiting, if you will), we need to be a threat to them.

The clearest solution is to institute a speed bonus in the brawler tree, and to make sure it requires a VERY significant skill point committment (to avoid marksmen just picking it up inkind and just kiting faster), such as only being available at a) master brawler and/or b) reasonable levels in the elite proffessions, just high enough so that getting it without the intent to use the skills on the way will put a majordent into your learning capacity. Furthermore, it might be best if it was gained gradually throughout each elite proffession, necessitating the holding onto of skills (so as not to have a guy master brawler and then drop every skill except master itself just for the speed bonus). Say, for example, that the 4th box on each branch in all 4 elite brawler proffessions granted a small speed bonus, so that you would have to spend close to 50 points to get the full benefit). Then again, there would have to be some cap to stop speed junkies from taking all elite brawler proffessions and ending up 9 times faster then normal (I9 being an arbitrary number). Again, all these provisions are to make sure that only brawlers who are going to need to catch up to marksmen will get the bonuses (not semi-brawlers or marksmen

Now I have no idea how much server slowdown the computing of different running speeds would cause, and I have no idea if that's even possible without a serious patching job, but I'm just saying that it might be something to introduce to TC. I don't think marksmen could really whine about it so much, as they're still going to get shots in before we catch them, and if they work together with other brawlers like their supposed to, they might even get a line of defense up (although it may just encourage annoying CH combos and lots of rancors). Like I said, just an idea, but properly implemented it could really solve this imbalance. Because we really can't hang aroung in bars waiting for fights to break out.

In the Star Wars EU (that's extended universe, the books, if you didn't know) there's a few people that excel in melee combat. Mara Jade is a good example. She was the Emperor's hand, skilled at both ranged and hand to hand combat tactics. Another is, er, that chick that was Talon Karrde's bodyguard (I can't think of her name right now, something with an S). She was trained as a lethal melee fighter, and she proves it in the novels.

I see your point about not seeing this kinda stuff in the movies, but then again, it was a sci fi flick. People don't go to sci fi flicks to see sword fights, they go for futuristic guns and ships and all that fancy stuff.