Brawler Archive

Greetings,

This post is in response to the CURB. The reason all of you (Brawler, Tera Kasi Artist, Fencer, Swordsman, and Pikeman) are seeing this is that it could effect you all. No matter what, all of us are in for some MAJOR changes. Below is one idea that solves several possible issues, and will probably create others. I do know this, we can not change what we do not know. This is not focused on that. I also know one other thing. SWG is not going to die. It did not die with jedi grind before the jedi revamp. When AFK'rs where all over. People camping spawn sites not for loot, but for xp to grind professions to unlock. It did not die with jedi revamp and all the jedi running around. It will not die with CURB, for the same reason. People will play because it's starwars, and new people will join all the time. WoW was supposed to kill it, EQ2 was supposed to kill it also. Still, SWG is here. Now to my idea.

The new CURB requirements

(http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=63147#M63147)

have made some drastic requirement changes that make no sense to several people, and depending on how you look it, makes sense for others. I can see why pikeman COULD require unarmed, but then it makes no sense why swordsman does not. Pikeman needs it to help defend against unarmed attacks, and do the basic unarmed attacks they could do. Leg sweeps, the punches and so such. Then why does not swordsman need it? Why does TKA need 2 handed swords? There are several possible answers, and with what we DO know, anything is possible. The most plausible to myself is that they wanted to increase the costs of the professions.

Before I fully explain my idea, we need to look at what each profession is/should be.

Master Brawlers are masters of no weapon, nor are they weak in any area. A Master Brawler could be a thug, street fighter, explorer of possible ideas, not disciplined enough to master a field, etc etc. No matter how you look it at, A Master Brawler is a jack of all trades in the Brawler Tree. They know how to use the basic and some intermediate weapons/skills of everyone.

Tera Kasi Artists are the masters of unarmed/small contact weapons. Vibroknucklers are one such example their weapons. TKA's take on opponents unarmed that many would not take on at all. From the research I have done, there is reference, but no positive proof that they made it their job to take down the rogue jedi as well. Master Jedi were beyond them however. TKA's did this not by being a tank in the classic sense (Sure, try to catch a saber in YOUR hand), but by evasion, deflection, and just plain mastering ones body.

Fencers in SWG are not fencers in the classic sense. Fencers use Rapiers, foils, Epee's, Scimitars, Cutlass and other small light fast moving single handed swords. A fencer in the classic sense use skill and speed to take down opponents. By tight deflection with very controlled strikes, a fencer would either leave an opponent unable to act and bleeding to death from several/hundreds of small wounds, or just dead from a couple critical strikes. A fencer is nothing more then a very specialized swordsmans. In SWG fencers are beat cops/old school jailers/thugs. They take a baton, and beat the person into submission. This is something a Master Brawler would do, not a fencer. In this proposed new brawler tree, the fencer is not a profession (Let the flame begin!)

Swordsman are the masters of blades. There is no other way to describe them. From rapiers, to katana's, even the big two handed 7' claymores. Of all the professions, the swordsman would have the most dynamic of weapon capabilites. Going from a rapier, that is small, light and picks you apart slowly, to the claymore/scythe that just cleaves someone in half by brute force, and everything in between.

Pikeman are the masters 'long' range melee combat. Pikeman in the classic sense were foot soliders who stopped the mounted troops, were the mounted troops, or supported the swordsman/shield carriers. Pikeman knew how to use any long weapon, and use it well. From a staff, a light weight long pole that could hold many opponents at bay, to the lance that could take mounted men off their mounts, to 8' plus halberds that would reach over their allies and cleave the opponent in half.

With the above down, there is one thing that is missing, and a post done by another gave the idea for the new tree. I can't remember who, but he mentioned that maybe the Brawler tree needed a 'support' branch like marksman has. What a wonderful idea, but this is not a support branch, but the CORE of any melee/martial style.

Any form of martial training focuses on two things to start. Application of the fighting technique, and stances/footwork. It is this latter part that is missing. By adding this, taking out fencer and making it part of the swordsman, where I (my opinion, not shared by many) believe it belongs we complete this cycle of training. What a character would learn in the beginning branches of Unarmed/Swords/Polearms of the brawler tree would be how to wield your fists/feet/weapons, not how to stand and move.

Any martial form focuses one these things in the beginning. How to stand and move ensures that you have a defense. The stances branch would give the character this. No true fighting techniques would be learned. No new special moves, just the defenses and how to stand.

At novice brawler, a character would gain basic weapons, and how to stand in what is a 'neutral' stance. Neither offensive or defensive. At Stances 1, the character would gain the ability to stand in a 'defensive' stance. By doing this, the character is focusing on defense, and not offense. It would improve the characters defense/tanking ability, but the character would attack slower/do less damage. At Stances 3, the character would gain an 'offensive' stance. It would do the exact opposite of the defensive stance.

By making this one change, you have opened the brawler tree up so much more, and still kept the new CURB costs. It would allow a player to customize thier combat style more. The fencer as we know it could still exist, and give the fencer more possiblities by being a Master Brawler/Master Swordsman.

If you notice, there are proposed abilities other then the stances. Even then it doesn't say that at stances 3 the player gains a +25 to unarmed/melee defense. The only CURB post that I know of at this time doesn't say that these things are staying. It even suggests that these very stats we are used are going away. I will leave that to the developers to decide what is best with the new balance in the CURB.

Why even suggest this? The correspondents are a direct line to the devs. With all of us who are being directly effected saying what we think, as a group to the correct correspondent, MAYBE we can get a positive change that the Brawler community wants. This is the only way to even influence the CURB. Posting on the CURB forum may not change a thing, for everyone is posting there. Also, by keeping each forum focused on it's one profession, that makes 5 correspondents speaking, and not one or two, with a WHOLE profession base, and all it's possibilites speaking as a voice.

Change sucks, but it happens. Adapt or die. There is no other way. Speak up, of what we DO know. Not off what we THINK is going to happen.

---

Tyyrshand wrote:
Greetings,

This post is in response to the CURB. The reason all of you (Brawler, Tera Kasi Artist, Fencer, Swordsman, and Pikeman) are seeing this is that it could effect you all. No matter what, all of us are in for some MAJOR changes. Below is one idea that solves several possible issues, and will probably create others. I do know this, we can not change what we do not know. This is not focused on that. I also know one other thing. SWG is not going to die. It did not die with jedi grind before the jedi revamp. When AFK'rs where all over. People camping spawn sites not for loot, but for xp to grind professions to unlock. It did not die with jedi revamp and all the jedi running around. It will not die with CURB, for the same reason. People will play because it's starwars, and new people will join all the time. WoW was supposed to kill it, EQ2 was supposed to kill it also. Still, SWG is here. Now to my idea.

The new CURB requirements

(http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=63147#M63147)

have made some drastic requirement changes that make no sense to several people, and depending on how you look it, makes sense for others. I can see why pikeman COULD require unarmed, but then it makes no sense why swordsman does not. Pikeman needs it to help defend against unarmed attacks, and do the basic unarmed attacks they could do. Leg sweeps, the punches and so such. Then why does not swordsman need it? Why does TKA need 2 handed swords? There are several possible answers, and with what we DO know, anything is possible. The most plausible to myself is that they wanted to increase the costs of the professions.

Before I fully explain my idea, we need to look at what each profession is/should be.

Master Brawlers are masters of no weapon, nor are they weak in any area. A Master Brawler could be a thug, street fighter, explorer of possible ideas, not disciplined enough to master a field, etc etc. No matter how you look it at, A Master Brawler is a jack of all trades in the Brawler Tree. They know how to use the basic and some intermediate weapons/skills of everyone.

Tera Kasi Artists are the masters of unarmed/small contact weapons. Vibroknucklers are one such example their weapons. TKA's take on opponents unarmed that many would not take on at all. From the research I have done, there is reference, but no positive proof that they made it their job to take down the rogue jedi as well. Master Jedi were beyond them however. TKA's did this not by being a tank in the classic sense (Sure, try to catch a saber in YOUR hand), but by evasion, deflection, and just plain mastering ones body.

Fencers in SWG are not fencers in the classic sense. Fencers use Rapiers, foils, Epee's, Scimitars, Cutlass and other small light fast moving single handed swords. A fencer in the classic sense use skill and speed to take down opponents. By tight deflection with very controlled strikes, a fencer would either leave an opponent unable to act and bleeding to death from several/hundreds of small wounds, or just dead from a couple critical strikes. A fencer is nothing more then a very specialized swordsmans. In SWG fencers are beat cops/old school jailers/thugs. They take a baton, and beat the person into submission. This is something a Master Brawler would do, not a fencer. In this proposed new brawler tree, the fencer is not a profession (Let the flame begin!)

Swordsman are the masters of blades. There is no other way to describe them. From rapiers, to katana's, even the big two handed 7' claymores. Of all the professions, the swordsman would have the most dynamic of weapon capabilites. Going from a rapier, that is small, light and picks you apart slowly, to the claymore/scythe that just cleaves someone in half by brute force, and everything in between.

Pikeman are the masters 'long' range melee combat. Pikeman in the classic sense were foot soliders who stopped the mounted troops, were the mounted troops, or supported the swordsman/shield carriers. Pikeman knew how to use any long weapon, and use it well. From a staff, a light weight long pole that could hold many opponents at bay, to the lance that could take mounted men off their mounts, to 8' plus halberds that would reach over their allies and cleave the opponent in half.

With the above down, there is one thing that is missing, and a post done by another gave the idea for the new tree. I can't remember who, but he mentioned that maybe the Brawler tree needed a 'support' branch like marksman has. What a wonderful idea, but this is not a support branch, but the CORE of any melee/martial style.

Any form of martial training focuses on two things to start. Application of the fighting technique, and stances/footwork. It is this latter part that is missing. By adding this, taking out fencer and making it part of the swordsman, where I (my opinion, not shared by many) believe it belongs we complete this cycle of training. What a character would learn in the beginning branches of Unarmed/Swords/Polearms of the brawler tree would be how to wield your fists/feet/weapons, not how to stand and move.

Any martial form focuses one these things in the beginning. How to stand and move ensures that you have a defense. The stances branch would give the character this. No true fighting techniques would be learned. No new special moves, just the defenses and how to stand.

At novice brawler, a character would gain basic weapons, and how to stand in what is a 'neutral' stance. Neither offensive or defensive. At Stances 1, the character would gain the ability to stand in a 'defensive' stance. By doing this, the character is focusing on defense, and not offense. It would improve the characters defense/tanking ability, but the character would attack slower/do less damage. At Stances 3, the character would gain an 'offensive' stance. It would do the exact opposite of the defensive stance.

By making this one change, you have opened the brawler tree up so much more, and still kept the new CURB costs. It would allow a player to customize thier combat style more. The fencer as we know it could still exist, and give the fencer more possiblities by being a Master Brawler/Master Swordsman.

If you notice, there are proposed abilities other then the stances. Even then it doesn't say that at stances 3 the player gains a +25 to unarmed/melee defense. The only CURB post that I know of at this time doesn't say that these things are staying. It even suggests that these very stats we are used are going away. I will leave that to the developers to decide what is best with the new balance in the CURB.

Why even suggest this? The correspondents are a direct line to the devs. With all of us who are being directly effected saying what we think, as a group to the correct correspondent, MAYBE we can get a positive change that the Brawler community wants. This is the only way to even influence the CURB. Posting on the CURB forum may not change a thing, for everyone is posting there. Also, by keeping each forum focused on it's one profession, that makes 5 correspondents speaking, and not one or two, with a WHOLE profession base, and all it's possibilites speaking as a voice.

Change sucks, but it happens. Adapt or die. There is no other way. Speak up, of what we DO know. Not off what we THINK is going to happen.

---

Good Post, However, From what I took in from your thread, You seem like Fencer should be a little bit of every melee profession, and as far as I am concerned. Fencer is a Melee class, not part of another melee class. And if they think that I am going to have a 'little bit of everything' mentality to be what I want to be and a carbon copy of everyone else's wants/needs then I will gladly pick another profession.Change is good, which I can agree with you on that point. I know fencer is not a PvE profession, I didn't pick Fencer to PvE, I did that well enough as a Doc/Swordsman. I chose Fencer because Fencer is the elite of the Melee professions... I don't care who you are. Sure, you can kill a Nightsister as a Swordsman, because you focus on 1 area of attack: Mind, Teras Kasi is a rush of attacks causing confusion, Pikemen are people proficient with long poles to kill you before you get in close... and Fencer, well Fencer is the profession that gets in your face and asks for more, more, and more.

i disagree with you Kaotic and i agree with the original posters idea of a fencer.

Fencers SHOULD be all about hindering your opponents movement, using speed to your advantage and slicing them with nicks and cuts to wear them down. Fencers currently don't do that, either at all or very well, bleeds are nerfed into not even being useable and there is no way to slow or hinder your opponent if your not master brawler with a lunge2.

I do and don't like where fencers are currently, i like that we dodge nearly 90% of incomming attacks but it takes us 3+ hours to do something a swordsman could do in 5 min. Armor, buffs, and food make it so that fencer really isn't needed at all, the ONLY reason i could see going fencer CURRENTLY is because of the stun weapon however most players that pvp now have stun armor along with a stun psg.

New direction is needed for all profs and a set role in combat should be in place. Fencers should be able to do something that a swordsman or any other melee prof can not do as well as the other melee'ers doing something thats VERY specific to them.

Hopefully we'll get to see that come from the CURB, however i know many don't have much faith left in SOE not to totally FUBAR the game.

---

Ebak wrote:

acctually the smarter choice would be to combine one-handed and two-handed weapons into all-around blade fighters, that will open up a free branch in brawler.

---

I said "In this proposed new brawler tree, the fencer is not a profession (Let the flame begin!)" I guess I was not clear enough. The two swordsman styles would be combined into one, freeing up the needed tree branch allowing for the stances (or whatever it would be called) tree.

What I would like to see fom the CU is instead of a swordsman needing both 1h and 2h ot a TKN needing unarmed and 2h (makes no freaking sense to me), something similar to Ranged Support in Marksman. Call it Close Combat Support.

Skill Name: Close Combat Support 1 Glare
Skill/Ability: CoB +2, CoB Efficency +10

Close Combat Support 2 Intimidation
Intimidate 1, CoB +2, CoB Efficency +10

Close Combat Support 3 War Cry
CoB +2, CoB Efficency +10

Close Combat Support 4 Berserk
Berserk 1, CoB +2, CoB Efficency +10

Now how would one add this into the current setup for bralwer? Simple, merge the novice lines of 1H and 2H like most of artisan is and called it Swords 1-4 (since both use a sword as their primary weapon). Then like artisan you could branch off at Novice Fencer and Novice Swordsman. This would free up a branch where Close Combat Support would go. Thus it would look like such.

TKN: Unarmed 4 + Close Combat Support 4
NOVICE SWORDSMAN: Swords 4 + Close Combat Support 4
NOVICE FENCER: Swords 4 + Close Combat Support 4
NOVICE PIKEMAN: Polearms 4 + Close Combat Support 4

This would provide all classes of brawler onegeneralcategory which provide themwith essesntial skills they could use and also free them up from having to spend skills points in another class that they will not probably ever use. I know as a TKM and Master Swordman I never used another combat class.

Well just my thouhgts on how to make the CU better for bralwer and their elite professions instead of what they have currently proposed for us.

I am currently not satisfied with the brawler template as we get a full tree with one extra special move and useless mods. The brawler tree should be balanced to the marksman tree with a support branch and the fix I like the most is to combine two handed and one handed and maybe require a branch from another proffesion for one, I can't really come up with a better solution, but I want to post this comment to show that I would like a change and people should post about this so we can get a response.