Brawler Archive

Hi all,

I was a beta tester and through most of Beta 3 I played a brawler type character. I have some simple facts to inform you all about.

1. You will get owned in pvp by anybody with a gun. Obviously, anybody with a gun can kill a guy with a knife, sword, staff or bare knuckles brawler guy. Remember in one of the Indiana Jones movies where the arab guy whipped out a sword and did his thing and then Indy just shot him. That is how it's gonna be. Maybe it'll change, maybe not. Please don'tcry about this. You can knock down Indy with is gun if you get close enough with the lunge attack and yes it does very little damage, it just knocks him down. Try using this befor he gets to far away to stop ranged guy from kiting you to death.

2. If you group with a bunch of ranged marksmen etc. you will be worthless. If it's a large group most of the time you won't even get to fight the critter/npc befor the firing squad you joined has taken it down, therefore you get no xp. My solution to this is group with other melee/brawlers. It maybe harder to take out the big stuff with you being right there and the critter npc beating on you from the get go but hey, you wanted to be able to dish out a beating or you won't be a brawler. Expect to take one in return.

3. There is no such thing in this game as a "tank". Just because you are a brawler like an enforcer in AO or any other game where melee guys are tougher than everybody else doesn't mean you are here. Everybody is basically equal. Armor helps as do some of the brawler abilities but they dont help much until you get some of the nice stuff. If you are getting your butt kicked do what everybody does who has half a brain, run. Burst run and pound the peace shortcut you set up for yourself. Whatever is chasing you will loose interest eventually or you will get incapped.

4. 2 handedweapons and polearms are slow. They are heavy weapons and they should be.

I would just like to say one thing. Don't go crying about how brawlers get owner by marksman in pvp or that mobs are to tough for a brawler to take out solo or anything. That will only bring out the nerf bat and everybody knows once it comes out it doesn't get put away cuz then some other profession start crying about how brawlers get all the love and that their favorite profession sucks compared to them and so brawlers get the bat upside the head and so on and so on ad nauseum until the end of the world as we know it.

Don't take my word for the gods honest facts. It's just my opinion and I don't want this to become a whine post. I think most people will tell you the same thing if they play a brawler regularly.

If anyone has anything to add or would like to discuss any of my statments, I am more than willing to speak in a civil way.

Thanks for the read and I look forward to any civilized discussion or suggestions for improvement for our honorable martial profession.

Garishna

For the most part, I agree with you (Howdy fellow beta tester ), but I have a couple of comments:

[quote] You will get owned in pvp by anybody with a gun.[/quote]

This is completely true outdoors. However, inside a structure, a brawler will be the last man standing. I had great success in PvP ducking inside a POI or town building. Any marksman who followed me was dead.

[quote] There is no such thing in this game as a "tank". Just because you are a brawler like an enforcer in AO or any other game where melee guys are tougher than everybody else doesn't mean you are here. Everybody is basically equal.[/quote]

This is true as far as functionality goes, but brawlers do get a 'toughness' bonus. I'd like to see this raised a bit, though, since it's very hard to see a visible benefit so far. But you are correct, in a group of kiting marksman, you're not going to be able to hold a mob very easily.


Besides those points, great post!

Race you to TKM

If a good brawler can get within range of a marksman, a combo of lunge/knockdown moves and a few other specials will finish the marksman in 3 or 4 moves. Exceptionally potent if you get in range!!

Also, a good brawler is only worthless in a poorly-ran group. A well organized, knowledgeable group of any type can accomdate a brawler who knows how to play very easily, with great success, and with benefits for all.

Since lunge lost its damage, pvp against ranged types is a no win situation for brawlers.

Because any ranged combatant can run full speed the other way and still tag you 100% of the time, they do.

This forces us to use lunge to "grab" them and then we have to continue to use some type of knockdown or other "holding" move to keep them in our range.

The breakdown in this system occurs because the ranged combatant is getting to use his full damage attacks while we are forced to use "grabing" or "posture chaging" attacks.

This is bad because we are saddled with our best "grabbing attack" doing 1 damage.

Even if we start close to the ranged guy we loose.

I have lost in a building since lunge went to 1 point.

As an example, lets assume that the ranged player and the brawler do roughly the same damage and each does 250 a hit.

The ranged guy is pumping steady damage where as the unarmed brawler type is having to use an attack that does 1 point. In 4 or 5 shots the brawler is dead even ifhe knocks down the ranged guy. The pistol guy can just continue to fire his best attack as he tries to leave even when knocked down,before the brawler can get enough damage in he is dead. Each does 5 hits but because the brawler HAS to use 2 attacks that do only 1 damage in order to keep his target in range he does much less damage.

The final nail in the brawlers coffin is the ranged guys can do "posture change" attacks AT RANGE and set you down on your butt so you can't even get to them. Further, thier "posture change" attacks do real damage not just 1 point.

Also, in PvE a marksman can solo like mad with warning shot and threaten shot. Not take any damage if he is carefull. There is nothing even that compares to that for the brawler.

So if you are playing a brawler, good luck.

Not asking for the nerf stick to the marksmen, just some dev love the the brawlers.

Dashiva

Former TKA Expert,

Now

Medic/Pistoleer (seriously, for combat pistol has ALL the advantages and no disadvantages)

I didn't deal with the marksman skills much, thanks for the info on what they are capable of. Now that I look at it we are a bit underpowered. I know the lunge damage thing kinda looks like a knee jerk reaction to the unarmed lunge exploit, but hey, we saw plenty of that.

Brawlers have a tough road of advancement. Difficulty seems much higher for us than marksman.

I wonder if marksmen have any complaints?

So how often are the PvP battles fought inside a building? I'd guess that most PvP is outside, since the worlds are mostly outdoor lands...

aww I liked being an unarmed brawler until i read this post. Okay, so maybe it does seem weak in pvp but I dont really do any of that anywyas. Also, its so **edit** cool seeing a huge wookie do kung-fu moves. You are right though, and i hope they make some changes in updates in the future.
Locobacca
Radiant

I only have 1 real PvP fight, so maybe I got lucky - but I had no problem what so ever owning a ranged weapon user the other day.

I saw an overt Rebel in Bestine that no one was attacking, so I figured I could not let that stand. I ran un behind him and knocked him in the skull. He ran, but I had no trouble keeping him in range with lunge. At the end of the fight he had done very little damage to to me and he was dead.

Maybe I was just lucky, or maybe that guy was really dumb (an overt Rebel standing in the middle of Bestine can't be too bright).

Nice list of facts.. I agree with all the points.

I feel something should be done to balance the classes though, or else the novelty factor of brawling will soon wear off, and everyone will just start using the same weapons.

Here's a couple of suggestions I feel would make brawling at least of some use in PVP and against large mobs.

Increase the innate defense bonuses and dodging for brawlers. Brawlers have to be right up close to do any damage. They're the first to take fire from everyone at once, and even when they do get close, they're not hitting much more or much more damage than a gun user.

Increase running speed if you have brawling skills.

Either increase the damage of brawlers, increase the attack speed, lower the special move cost, or increase the special move effectiveness. Again, brawlers should have every advantage if you manage to sneak up on someone and fight him toe to toe. As it is now, gun users have kiting, firing while running away, low special move costs, and point blank bursts. Brawlers get high special move costs that hurt you more than the other person.

Yeah, it does seem like brawlers are a bit underpowered--esp. with that 1-point hit with the lunge. If it were to give extra damage, that would be true to real life physics. A lunge is a lunge, folks: If you get hit witha lunge irl, you're toast with a good fencer. On the other hand, a lunge has the potential to throw you off balance--if you're a bad fencer. So perhaps they ought toincrease damage potential for a lunge, while keeping kd value, and, at the same time, adding a penalty to one's defensive value while making the lunge--when the character move into the lunge and becomesis fully extended intothe lungeposition where he can be easily hit. Seems fair, reasonable, and highly realistic.

And can anyone explain that cheesy twirly attack? Get real. LOL. Looks way too fancy and doesn't seem to do much in combat as far as I can tell. Maybe I'm using the wrong weapon?

Ari-Lin Zenari

Gorath

I disagree ...

Look ... you have 250 points to play with and after spending about 100 you will have speced in your chosen unarmed line and then mastered the Elite profession after that.

Then what?

Pick up ranged combat line or pet line.

I mean really there is no point arguing this like DAoC and saying that a tank must be able to auto face,a auto stick, shield block ranged shots and then super charge.

In combat you select range you want to play at:

0 = brawler
close = pistol
medium = carbine
far = rifle

And then select a pool you want to damage

Health = pistol, TK, knife
Action = carbine, 1H
Mind = rifle, 2H weaps

If you spec fully against one specific range and pool and then face a different opponent of course you will get owned. This is kinda like rock paper scissors. If you truly want to do well then pick up two combat forms that work well together like rifle / brawler. Force them to charge and then you counter charge to kill.

Brawlers do great at PvE and if you are good they can do well at PvP if there is good line of site breaking terrain and buildings.

Don't expect one weapon style or class to rule them all or even fare well against them all. Part of balance is that every rifleman in the game fears brawlers and brawlers fear pistol kiters. PvPers are drawn to the rifle with dreams of couterstrike in their heads and the fact that they see all these people with tiny mind pools about in combat. Brawlers just need to know what there prey is.

1. You will get owned in pvp by anybody with a gun. Obviously, anybody with a gun can kill a guy with a knife, sword, staff or bare knuckles brawler guy. Remember in one of the Indiana Jones movies where the arab guy whipped out a sword and did his thing and then Indy just shot him. That is how it's gonna be. Maybe it'll change, maybe not. Please don'tcry about this. You can knock down Indy with is gun if you get close enough with the lunge attack and yes it does very little damage, it just knocks him down. Try using this befor he gets to far away to stop ranged guy from kiting you to death.

One on One yes - but in group vs group PvP you should have ample opportunity to get in range and layeth the smack down

2. If you group with a bunch of ranged marksmen etc. you will be worthless. If it's a large group most of the time you won't even get to fight the critter/npc befor the firing squad you joined has taken it down, therefore you get no xp. My solution to this is group with other melee/brawlers. It maybe harder to take out the big stuff with you being right there and the critter npc beating on you from the get go but hey, you wanted to be able to dish out a beating or you won't be a brawler. Expect to take one in return.

If the marksmen in your group kill something before you get to it, you're fighting stuff thats too easy - I had no problems getting exp on Endor and Lok in groups with 10+ marksmen.

3. There is no such thing in this game as a "tank". Just because you are a brawler like an enforcer in AO or any other game where melee guys are tougher than everybody else doesn't mean you are here. Everybody is basically equal. Armor helps as do some of the brawler abilities but they dont help much until you get some of the nice stuff. If you are getting your butt kicked do what everybody does who has half a brain, run. Burst run and pound the peace shortcut you set up for yourself. Whatever is chasing you will loose interest eventually or you will get incapped.

Not strictly true - all brawlers that get past Expert in their weapon have a "toughness" stat that acts as natural armor, so you will take less damage than a marksman in similar gear. The amount wasn't too noticeable early on, but the numbers were increased in the late stages of beta.. there was a problem with polearm not getting the same increase as the others, havent remembered to check if thats still the case..

A couple things to keep in mind... you are talking about Intermediate Brawlers (maybe even Adv.). Thats like comparing level8 monks to level 8 druids in EQ. Its still WAY too early to tell just how the classes are going to shape out. I got owned by an pistol marksman on Talus just the other day but thats because I was stupid and chased him instead of ducking into a building. My mistake... my death (well he was also a higher level trained than I was but still). The only problem I see is that if you come across an opponent in PVP then no matter what you are essentially dead. He can run just as fast as you and can burst run for the same amount as you except that he's tagging you with a pistol the entire time. There is no means of separation, and if you accidentally make a wrong trun or bump into an object to slow you down then its definitely over. Hopefully the reduced equipment will result in faster footspeed to give us some sort of escape advantage needed when we have limited range capabilities.

I really don't see us as underpowered either. I was running around with a group of about 5 or 6 and was the only one who never died or got incapped. You haev to be smart no matter which class you play.