Brawler Archive

The Brawler getting dogged by a mob as he's tanking is not going to want to waste a lot of his HAM on specials (especially considering that Brawler specials are up in the sky anyway). So, a Brawler would choose a weapon with very DPS as the first consideration, then possibly look at HAM costs.

Also, let's be honest here...a common Weaponsmith complaint is how little we can actually do to lower HAM costs. Do you really think the difference in DPS is going to be worth the minute difference in HAM costs? I know of a few discerning individuals who've asked me to make a lower HAM cost weapon...and when I do, they compare it and are like "Um, this sucks...lemme get the other one."

Maybe if you're comparing 2 weapons of different types, say a Vibroblade and a Ryyk Blade, you could base a decision off the HAM costs, Vibroblades having a much lower cost at the expense of damage. But if you're comparing 2 Ryyk Blades, the one with the highest DPS will win out, as the HAM costs will be very similar regardless (and taking into consideration the fact that many Exp points will be wasted in Efficiency, as opposed to damage...the low HAM weapon would have pathetic damage/speed)

And I reiterate for about the 12th time here today...all I'm providing is a way to compare two weapons based on damage. I touch the point of HAM costs only to say that they're relevant to playing style, nothing more. My one problem is that I see a lot of players with little knowledge of the weaponcrafting process picking up any old Sword, because they don't realize that not all Swords are created equal, and even if they do, they could be suckered into buying someone's Failed experiment, because the damage comes out to like 300 points, yet the speed is about 8.0.

Guys you might as well drop it. Nox is saying the sky is blue, DTox is saying the ocean is blue. You aren't even arguing about the same things. I can understand why you are defensive over this DTox, you obviously put a lot of time into writing that guide and Nox discounted the whole thing in a sentence.

Which is not to say I dont dissagree with you as well DTox, and to be quite honest I found your first post insulting. It basically assumed I don't know how to add or divide on my own.

So with all that out of the way lets sum up what everone has said so far:

1) Weapons with good, but not necessarily the best dmg/dly ratios with good HAM costs are far superior to weapons with the best dmg/dly ratios with poor HAM costs.

2) Weapons that have prohibitively high HAMcosts (which cannot be brought down to reasonable levels) with better dmg/dly ratios are better in all cases.

To make things even more complicated is the added damage and speed you get with skill.

So the damage on a weapon that only a brawler 3 can use will do lots more damage than than a brawler 1 cert weapon.

someone mentioned weaponspeed not being the delay, afaik the weaponspeed number is the unmodified delay in seconds. Then you have the skill bonus and probably what position you are in etc.

Just my two öre...

There's so much about the original post that was incorrect wrt the game mechanics, I didn't bother to address all of it. My point was that this is not other games you've played. Don't make assumptions that lead to bad decisions.

1) Weapon speed isn't all of the picture. There's also base delay (unpublished) and speed bonus from skills.
2) weapon damage IS NOT LINEAR. High skill will tend towards high end damage range, hence a flat damage comparison IS NOT VALID.
3) specials are EVERYTHING. A pistoleer with body shot 3 will do 500+ damage a hit to the health pool EVERY TIME and FAST. compared to the base damage of any other weapon, there is no comparison. A pistoleer with a scoutblaster chaining body shot will out damage a WHOLE GROUP OF 20 doing normal attacks, we've tested this over and over.

open your eyes, don't make presumptions and learn the game you are playing. It's important. If one more goddamned newbie comes to me waving DPS in my face I am going to put a bount on YOU for continuing this ignorance.

Love, Nox.

as a rifleman, i don't use my specials often in a group.

I used to use overcharge shot, but then i reallized just how much using a special slows down your shot. I do almost as much damage just by firing away then by using overcharge shot, and i don't screw up my gun in the process.

When i solo i almost always aim straight for their mind pool with my specials. But in groups it's not usually a good idea as i'm often the only one who can hit the mind pool. Doesn't do me any good to knock a quarter of the things mind pool off while everyone else has managed to knock 75 percent of his health bar off.. i could have just fired normal and the hting would be dead.

Plus medics don't like to use special moves as it slows down their healing time a lot. If they need to get a heal off quick but just fired a body shot.. tough cookies, that guy is dead. In which case medics often ignore the HAM as well since they'll use normal shots anytime they are in a group.

I'll concede that there are non-damage dealers who won't focus on specials. But, that's a small fraction of the people who will be worrying about weapon stats.

lets just all agree that DPS is a good guideline for new players who havent developed a playing style. This guide obviously isnt an end-all-be-all, but more likely, a intermediate guide targeting the people duped into a weapon with 13-220 dmg and 9sec speed. There are still a LOT of people that focus on max damage and ignore min damage. When I buy a weapon (and thats only because I dont have enough technique points yet to really jazz one up), I look first at min damage and secondly at the speed. Then I look for low HAMS. I love my scout blaster because I know I am always going to get 50 points of damage _minimum_ (excluding misses) even before I use special moves like bodyshot2 every 2.8 seconds. In fact I am looking for a good slicer to lower my speed even more on this little guy. I have heard of a few scout blasters getting insane speeds of 1.8 after slicing. I think the guide is well written and informative to target new and intermediate users. Once they get up to pistol/rifle/carbine 3 and 4 then more advanced considerations of playing style and range modifiers should be considered. I think this guide goes a long way into educating new players as well as educating them that education is neccessary so that by the time a more advanced and elaborate guide is written they will know they should read and learn it as well.

PS. Has anyone determined if the Armor ratings on weapons is or is not real/functioning or if it was a prima-guide ficticious rumor? I have heard the armor rating argument but have yet to see a theory-to-practice experiment on the subject.

I just couldn't stand it I gota say something.

Nox, if you want to talk about the best weapons for special moves, then do it and stop trying to change the topic of this thread. It was stated multiple times in the original post that DPS does not take into account play style or special moves. Yes it's the rare player out there that does not use special combat moves. But they are out there. If DTox wants to write a guide on how to compare 2 averages, then he's done so. Granted it's a small and extremely secondary thing to consider due to the game mechanics.

The only real time to compare DPS on weapons for the majority of players is going to be when they found 2 weapons that have the same HAM cost. At this point you may as well go for the one that has the higher DPS on the off chance you forget to hit a special move. I've killed many a monster myself while afk because my weapon of choice happens to have a decent dps. Also being a carboneer at the moment means that no matter what I'm getting screwed on ham costs. No worries though, pistol is coming along nicely...

Also as to the numbers being inacurate for the delay due to weaponskill, posture or having a thumb stuck up your rear. The base numbers are still going to be the same. If laying down gives you a .2 second speed boost then it's going to be .2 faster with whatever weapon your using. Thus the numbers are still valid because no matter what modifiers happen to them, the base number always applies, and applies to all weapons that you can use.

Cheers

Not if you take his suggestion and formulate a % bonus.

A 2.2 speed weapon is not twice as fast as a 4.4 speed weapon, assuming they are both the same class. There is another delay involved which is the base delay. I do not know at this time what the base delay is, or if it varies per weapon class.

I am arguing against inaccuracy and presumption. You can become insulting if you wish, however that doesn't solve the problem of people continuing to fail to learn the game mechanics at hand and continue to make assumptions based on other games and misrepresentation.

IF you are going to make a big topic that tells people how to compare weapons, do so accurately. If you don't have the knowledge of the game mechanics to DO THAT, then spend some time learning those game mechanics.

- nox

I'm with NOX on this one.... the Thread title is "D'Tox' Guide to COMPARING WEAPONS". That intells that this Thread will tell you how to compare the weapons you are buying to find the best ones.... Not, how to compare the weapons you are buying to find the ones that posses the best damage stat from a inaccurate formula addopted from another game.

Nox is right on with his criticism. When you print false statements (Such as this thread) you deserve to be nailed with it before people read it and assume its the truth. That will lead to mass confusion and falsehoods.

Now, instead of saying that you were trying to tell people about how to compare damage, respond to Nox's statements about you inaccuracies. That leads to debate, which historically, leads to breakthough.

I have to agree with Nox on this one.

I've been a weaponsmith for a couple weeks and I never knew there was an additional speed modifier added on for each particular weapon. I thought 2.0 was twice as fast as 4.0.

This post validated my false assumption and would have caused me to lie to my customers by saying "your old weapon's dmg might be higher, but because my weapon is twice as fast, it is equivalent to twice the damage". DPS is crap. [(min dmg + max dmg) / 2 / speed] is a helluva lot different than [(min dmg + max dmg) / 2 / (speed + N)], where N is the weapons base speed modifier. If N is 0, as you suggest, then a 2.0 will do twiceasmuch dmg as a 4.0 if dmg values are equal. If N is 10, 1.17 times more dmg. BIG difference. Your calculation for % difference is utterly false. Not approximate, not a good "benchmark", just plain false.

Idon't HAM is truly necessary for this discussion. Its a usage issue. Sharp-shootersdon't need it as much, DH17 carbineers don't (can't) care, and ammo spammers do. I think HAM explaination should be a thread in itself.

It sucks that you spent a lot of time doing this because, if it were actually true, many people would be helped by this. I feel, though, a better post would have been to just say:

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Max damage doesn't make a weapon. In order to find out the average dmg add the min and max, etc, etc.

Also, speed plays a slight role in determining how fast you shoot and, therefore, your dmg over the long term.

<Insert info on HAM>

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Maybe you could actually do some tests to find out what each type of weapons base speed modifiers are. THAT I would love to see

Great all I've learned from all this is that I have to be politically correct in what I name the subjects of my posts andif Iwant to help someone out,so help me Ihad BETTER be correct!I'm kinda scared of ever posting anything, I might be wrong.

D'Tox' - Great info. I appreciate your time and effort.