Brawler Archive

Just a tiny nitpick from the first post.

All the armed brawlers can target a specific pool at the Advanced level. (One-hand body hit 1, Two-hand head hit 1, and Polearm leg hit 1) Only unarmed brawlers cannot target a specific pool.

I belive they can target any of the three.

could be wrong...and common guys. Those where good ideas.

I stand (sit) corrected, Vanae. The melee weapon users can indeed target one pool at tier 2 of their weapons. So I amend myself:

At level 1 in each ranged weapon, a Marksman can target a specific pool. At level 3, they get an advanced version of that specific pool-targeting. At level 4, they get a DoT effect in that specific pool.

At level 2 in each melee weaponexcept the unarmed track, a Brawler gets the ability to target a specific pool. That's it until they reach an elite class; no higher-level attack form or DoT effect.

Feel free to doublecheck me on that, too.

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Someone mentioned to me that I also neglected to point out that the Hunting track of Scout (and the Bioscience track of Ranger) provides bonuses to hit only for ranged weapons, giving Marksmen yet another advantage over Brawlers.

I've also heard since then that Holocron mentioned something about fixing that to apply to all combat classes, melee included. Can anyone confirm this?

Ark,

You are absolutely right about that 4th HAM bar for specials.

Great ideas!

How would you handle KD among all the classes?

hi there, me again, and i'll state it again. The game is designed, PER THE DEVELOPERS, to simulatea 'realistic' starwars galaxy. PER THE DEVELOPERS, brawler and marksman are NOT meant to be equals. Guns are superior, the quote was from a developer on this topic when asked about the 'imbalance' between the classes, 'don't bring a knife to a gunfight'.

I wonder if some have purchased this game with the 'correct' understanding of what it is trying to accomplish. This isn't DOOM, or DAoC, AC or EQ, all of which were fine games.Galaxies,however, is a wholly new undertaking in that it is trying to truly simulate the Star Wars Universe, not make a fun play toy for people to hack and slash in. This is a key point to enjoying and being succesful in this game.

Does anyone, at any time remember seeing a storm trooper throw down his carbine and say, 'Hey, i'll just knock that guy out!!' No because the guy would pull his blaster and waste him. This game isn't meant for everyone to be equal, accept it, understand it and deal with it. Infact I dont' recall anywhere H2H being used except between Jedi adn well, that speaks for itself.

I created a melee character knowing this and knowing it would be more difficult than my marksman. Thats fine by me, pride in getting to the top means alot and knowing it was difficult getting there means more respect from others when you reach it.

But again, on a similar thread, which i've been trying to find and sorry i haven't been able come up with it, per the development these two classes are not meant as equals. I agree with some of the points you make but what you're expecting, being able to beat a guy hand to carbine is, well silly. People who bought this game saying 'I'm going to do this and thats it and thats all i want to do'are bound for disappointment. You dont' what the game is or does yet andyou can't make an informed decision until you've experienced and UNDERSTAND the mechanics behind what they are trying to do. Guns have the advantage and I really doubt that will change much.

You do post some good points, vibros' should be in brawler and you should have attacks that dam specific pools similar to marksman abilities and at similar levels, those i agree on. But don't expect the guy with the knife to win the fight, ain't gonna happen.

Merjear Kirage

JoeBobJedi,

I don't think you are fully grasping what people are trying to get across in these post, because you seem to be missing the point. NO-ONE expects for melee to have an advantage over ranged, of course that's silly. The only thing that everyone is asking for is that when melee skilled players are in their element, let's make that apparent. The way you talk, you almost sound as if you want melee to be useless. Then what would be the point of even having it in the game?

Yeah, Ranged SHOULD have the advantage. And Ranged is the key word, they should have the advantage because of range. Think of it, Ranged attacks can hit you from up to 64m away, and mellee can only hit from what, 15m at the most? That's a huge 49m advantage! Yeah any fool running from the extremity of that distance to charge someone with a gun should be killed, but if there is a marksman who is not skilled enough to keep his attacker at bay and he gives up his HUGE range advantage, all we are saying is that the shooter SHOULD pay a penalty and now be in the brawlers element. Especially when the brawler went through so much trouble to get there and overcome the huge advantage that the markman had over him, there should be some type of reward for the effort, or else, why don't we just get rid of the brawler class altogether?

So let me make myself clear just incase someone decides to put up another post and still don't understand the point we are trying to make.

YES, YES, YES, Ranged weapons = advantage.

The road to mastering a brawler class SHOULD be more difficult, and once there it SHOULD take more effort and planning to beat a marksman than vice versa.

On the flip side of this it should be more rewarding to take up a brawler class and come out victorious over insurmountable odds. I like the fact that I wouldhaveto be able to display extreme skill to pull that off, just givebrawlers the tools to be able to reasonably do so, as I said in the previous post, if you stand right in front of me and point a gun right against my head I guarantee you will not be shooting me, let alone a master martial artist, they would get ahold of you and that gun and would not let you go until the fight was done. But if you stand outside of my reach and you have a gun trained on me, most likely I'm finished. At the very LEAST we can give brawlers this much to work with.

So once AGAIN MarksmenSHOULD have the advantage, lets be clear on that. So that we won't have to see any more post claiming that we want the opposite.

[ This is me, flying off the proverbial handle at the constant "Brawlers are SUPPOSED to be lame!" counter-argument. Thisdeveloping zealot sincerely apologizes.]

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No siree, JoeBob. I believe that you're missing the point. I thought I explained pretty well in the initial posting, but I don't mind giving it another shot if you guys don't mind another dose of spam.

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POINT: Guns are superior weapons to knives, swords, axes, and bare fists, as they require significantly less effort on the user's part to use effectively. For example, children have been known to inflict lethal wounds with their parents' home firearms. You don't very often hear of a 5-year-old accidentally punching someone to death or picking up a 50-pound axe and inadvertentlygutting the mailman.

EXTENSION OF LOGIC: It should be significantly easier for a person to pick up a firearm and become lethal at it with less time and training than someone who has conditioned their entire body to the same level of close-quarters lethality. One might hear about a swordsman who spent decades honing his reflexes, or a martial artist who has dedicated his life to holistic "perfection." The U.S. military can teach you how to properly shoot people deadin the order of weeks.

APPLICATION: The Brawlerclasses, due to the fundamentally difficultnature of their professions, should take longer to level up than the Marksman classes. It's very hard to succeed when you're using an inherently inferior weapon. However, once you do achieve a high skill level, it should be a point of pride worthy of respect -- not because you're enduring a career that the general public knows is crappy and they're surprised that you're sticking with it -- but because you took the more difficult path to the same level of effectiveness.

EXAMPLE: Bounty Hunters are, by design, serious booty-kickers. As a result, the devs have made them purposefully more difficult to level up. The profession takes a LOT of skill points and -- in theory of design -- earns XP more slowly than any other class. However, the class carries a lot of prestige because once a Bounty Hunter maxes out, he or she has some serious oomph to show for it.

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Why is it easier to slide down the path to the Dark Side? Because the Dark Side is quicker. Easier. More seductive. By that reasoning, anyone fortunate enough to be Force Sensitive can run off and go Dark.

Why are Jedi so cool? Not because they have neato powers; Sith Lords get those too. It's because Jedi have chosen the route of slow, disciplined advancement. That's why the Jedi deserve respect.

I think you see my analogy.

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.... So, yeah, I'd really like everyone to stop focusing on one guy's suggestion of "don't bring a knife to a gun fight." It honestly, really, really doesn't apply here because this is a GAME. Here, let me hit you with some text formatting: A GAME.

In balancedgames, people expect to put forth X effort and receive X reward. If they figure out that "Hey, playing a _____ is both difficult and unrewarding," then you'll find that most people will go do something else.

In balanced games, two players with the same skill level should be roughly equivalent in their respective arenas of expertise.

Is it true, then, that the game's designers really intend the melee classes to -- frankly -- blow?

Is it true that we Brawlers are to (here it comes) pay our good money, spend hours and hours neglecting our real lives (or other games)... all for the chance to play a struggling character who is destined to be lame no matter what?

I honestly can't believe that the devs don't care about game balance. For crying out loud, they've done nothing BUT pull out their hair over game balance since before the darn thing was released. They're still struggling with it today.

I alsocan't believe that it's company policy to openlytorque off the players of 50% of our combat class options. That one infamous quote has become the glossy scapegoat, preventing people from seeing the real issue of game balance.

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Poor, unrested Holocron (et alia) gives me the feeling that they're trying to make things better -- they just don't know exactly how.

My cryptic --and uncharacteristically short -- answer would be:

Let us Brawlers reply:"....Why didYOU bring agun to aknife fight?"

Hehhe .. nice Finish on that last message... 3 points.

1. Balance *IS* important.

2. Brawler vs Marksman balance WILL improve

3. Devs will be a LOT more careful when using catch phrases from now on.

On a personal note, I posted my idea because I believe that the more ideas that are posted to solve the problem, the faster the problem may be solved. Complaining about it or bickering over it is counterproductive. As I stated in my post, I've played both, and mostly overt. From all my PvP experience, I can tell you that there are some imbalances that seem very far-fetched and I have full faith that they will be corrected... For good measure ... I'm going to suggest something else ... a nice way to balance the knockdown, dizzy, stun attacks...

-> You can only dizzy, stun, or knockdown (both melee and ranged)if the previous attack was a 'miss' , or the defender has his defenses down (at peace, dizzy, kneeling, etc)...

Reality: the pistol knockdown. If someone is holding a polearm .. that polearm is a defensive weapon as much as it is an offensive weapon. How someone with a pistol can knock someone down time and time again is beyond me.

In my post on kiting in the MArksman Forum I suggested having a knife to toss at whatever Creature, NPC, or PC. The "knife" would knock down the marksman because it would hit them in the calf and the marksman would suffer a speed reduction of say 15-20%. This could be done from say 30 meters from any stance. The knockdown would slow them down further. The knife couldonly be used once on anything before a medic healed the action completely. I also think brawlers should be given kneeling and prone attacks because some pistoleer could keep you pinned to the ground for quite some time.

The biggest problem between Ranged vs Melee is the whole reality issue.... Both side keep crying about reality in a Star Wars universe!

Lets take a look at reality....

For the ranged folks out there.

Try these easy at home experiments, fun for the whole family!

Go get something that weighs about 2 -3 pounds an iron works pretty good and its balanced about how a pistol is, now go out side point it at a target and take off running away from it while keeping aim at your target. Two things WILL happen 1. You will fall on your face at some point, 2. you will not be able to maintain your aim on target.

Now go get something long that weighs 8 - 10 pounds and is shaped basicly like a carbine repeat above process, you will have the same results but much faster.

Now find something 3 to 4 feet long and that weighs 11 -15 pounds repeat above processes you will barely make it 10 feet.

You will find that if you slow down to a slow jog that you will fall less and be able to maintain your aim better with all of the above results.

Now try these same experiments while running at your target quickly and then try it slower. Two things WILL happen, 1. You will not fall on your face (unless you have two left feet), 2. You will noticed a drastic improvement in your aiming.

This experiment brings up these questions...

1. Should ranged have a speed decrease? Only if they are attacking while running away from there target.

2. Should Ranged take a serious decrease while running away from their target. Hell yes.

3. If you want reality. Why are you kiting?

For all of the melee folks out there.

Try these at home experiments, also fun for the whole family.

Find a willing "target" preferably someone who can not kick your ass. If possible equip this person with a paint ball/air soft gun. Havesaid individualrun away from you while shooting at youand try to attack them, but wait did I mention that you have to tie your hands behind your back? And no tripping or kicking. Two things Will happen, 1. Your "target" is going to get away and maybe hit you with some projectiles (see above), 2. If you can catch your target (he fell on his face) you will find that you can not attack him.

Now repeat above experiment with your hands untied, you can trip and you can kick. A few thingsWILL happen, 1. You will find that you "target" still might get away, but only if you did not trip, tackle grab or punch your target in the back of the head. 2. Your target might have hit you a few times with said projectiles. 3. You only caught your target if he was trying to aim at and he was smart enough to slow down and actually aim.

These experiments bring up these questions............

1. Are melee players hamstrung by not being able to attack aRUNNING target. Yes.

2. Should Melee players get movement specific attacks, i.e tackle, trip? It might end kiting once and for all. At

least PvP.

3. Should Melee players get a speed bonus? Why can a kick boxer necessarily out run an Infantryman?

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I know at this point this is a long post, but the question the ranged keep asking (blame the devs for bring it up) Why did you bring a knife to a gun fight? But at the same time for you Ranged that want to duel Melee, Why did you bring a gun to a knife fight, are you scared? And PvP battle fields are are open season deal with it.

Now that I've said that and before the flaming begins (silly flamers:smileywink My character is a Brawler that is about 15K shy of TKN and 5K shy of becoming a Pistoleer, so do not think that this came from a biased opinion, just one that is playing both sides and sees the imbalance.

And I will strike back on how these classes can work together.

As a current Master Marksman and Master Unarmed Specialist, I feel qualified to comment - having seen both sides firsthand. Having said that, I WHOLEHARTEDLY agree with Zacrobmer and the initial post on this thread.

It's not a matter of realism. If it was there are examples - Zacrobmer's post shows a few where realism is already out the window. In fact, the whole "realism" thing is out the window anyhow - we are playing STAR WARS! This whole thing is make believe - HELLO!

It's a game. A game is played for fun - no other reason. What fun is it to play a combat based character that's a wimp? I've played an artisan. He's a master artisan and guess what? He gets his butt handed to him every time he goes into combat. That's the way it's supposed to work. I don't get an artisan to fight - I do it for other aspects and I enjoy it. But there is NO OTHER FUN ASPECT to playing a brawler than to FIGHT! That's why he's called a "Brawler". What fun is it if you constantly lose or, at the very least, spend two minutes recovering from every two white-conning creatures you run into when your friends are all ready to move on to the 5 they are taking out at a time.

It comes down to how much fun you have with the classes. If it's no fun - people will just switch professions, abandon entire trees within a profession, or quit altogether. If very few people stick with the profession because it's no fun to play - what's the point in having it?

Make it a comparable profession or get rid of it. It makes no sense to have a profession so difficult to attain and so useless in the grand scheme of things.

would it be possible for for ranged weapon users to have their speed/accuracy ratio on a sliding bar?

Like they can pree-choose what ratio they want......at Accuracy/-------------------+/speed

They can not attack while moving. At Accuracy/------------------+-/speed

They can now attack while running, but run at 95% speed and their accuracy is 5% of what it would be while not moving.

and so on and so fourth untill. Acccuracy/+-------------------/speed

Now they are standing still but have 100% of their accuracy.

This can be controlled by a sliding bar at the bottom of the screen wich can be changed with the cursor or the + and - buttons(whatever).

there problem solved

give me something hard.

On said post about kiting...simple solution...

add 2 abilities to all brawlers

Intermediate: Weighted ties1 (Can't remember their real name...the thing that has three weights...tied together, whip em around tie up person sends em to a lying position)Gives you the ability to throw one...hmm, maybe craft it...like the scouts darts...give brawlers some draft schematics....and for each tier of brawler: Pikeman,2h sword, 1h sword....aimed to throw at said HAM specific place....Pikes tie down legs...making them trip....lying prone...hehe

2handers: aimed at head, causing dizziness, with possibility of instant incap due to a weight being hurled at your HEAD...(remember very small chance of this happening)

1handers: aimed at body, so kiting is something they can't do....all they can do is run....but 1handers have the possibility of causing them to DROP a weapon due to a weight being hurled at their chest/weapon area.

Expert: You get to choose where it hits....buy crafting the specificone....can craft multiple ones that aredifferent...gives a random effect onceyou hit master....sounds like thatwould make things FAIR...

and while they brought a gun....we brought a knife and some throwy ball thingys