Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: First strike means equality with a full template jedi? Then..
So for the sake of argument lets say we travel to three weeks after patch 20 and that number wasn’t 50% but closer to one or two percent, for the sake of argument.
Would that be a sign of imbalance?
Would the devs think something is wrong?
Would that be call for improvements to BH or adjustments to jedi?
If BH with first strike compared to a full template jedi should be equal then the overall numbers should support this. What if they aren’t even close?
ObiQuixote wrote:
All other things being equal if you tracked the number of hunts that result in combat and the number of hunts that are successful you should be close to 50/50. Right? Of course there’s going to be bad templates and inexperienced players on each side but they should balance each other out.
So for the sake of argument lets say we travel to three weeks after patch 20 and that number wasn’t 50% but closer to one or two percent, for the sake of argument.
Would that be a sign of imbalance?
Would the devs think something is wrong?
Would that be call for improvements to BH or adjustments to jedi?
If BH with first strike compared to a full template jedi should be equal then the overall numbers should support this. What if they aren’t even close?
Three weeks after patch all those BH's will have learned to deal with jedi or moved on to something else, and like I said there are people that don't know what they are doing on each side. That should balance out over the long run.
But what if it’s not? And it could go either way and show BH winning 98% of time. Would that mean BH is too powerful? Could we say that despite the fact this situation has been defined as supposedly equal that BH winning 98% of the time is not because the situation isn’t equal but because all BH know what they are doing and all the jedi or noobs?
Message Edited by ObiQuixote on 07-11-2005 10:36 AM
ObiQuixote wrote:
All other things being equal if you tracked the number of hunts that result in combat and the number of hunts that are successful you should be close to 50/50. Right? Of course there’s going to be bad templates and inexperienced players on each side but they should balance each other out.
So for the sake of argument lets say we travel to three weeks after patch 20 and that number wasn’t 50% but closer to one or two percent, for the sake of argument.
Would that be a sign of imbalance?
Would the devs think something is wrong?
Would that be call for improvements to BH or adjustments to jedi?
If BH with first strike compared to a full template jedi should be equal then the overall numbers should support this. What if they aren’t even close?
Instead of trying to measure theoretically how "good" a player is with his template (BH or Jedi), why don't you do an analysis of whatJedi can do that a BH can't and what a BH can do and a Jedi can not. List all of them on a thread, then ask yourself does this give Jedi an unfair advantage? Include everything from foodto SEA's as the good players will use them (lets not forget about cyborg arms). Look at it objectively and then if you can draw a conclusion that there is an imbalance between Jedi and BH currently, your thread could be taken more seriously. Remember, don't use "Devs said this a month ago" or "I've seen some Jedi take out entire squads solo".....use currentfacts that you can get just by looking at the skills that Jedi and Non-Jedi professions provide.
Reason I say this is because most players preceive Jedi to be stronger but never look at the facts just write the same"Jedi are uberz, please nerf".If you never ask and investigatewhy the Jedi is more powerful than any non-Jedi template, how can you ask the devsto balance Jedi?
And when you do this, remember - no Jedi can do ALL of them at the same time. Just like no BH can be a MBH/MRifle/MCM, no Jedi can have cloak, avoid incap, stasis and be a MLS at the same time.
WookieOgre wrote:
ObiQuixote wrote:
All other things being equal if you tracked the number of hunts that result in combat and the number of hunts that are successful you should be close to 50/50. Right? Of course there’s going to be bad templates and inexperienced players on each side but they should balance each other out.
So for the sake of argument lets say we travel to three weeks after patch 20 and that number wasn’t 50% but closer to one or two percent, for the sake of argument.
Would that be a sign of imbalance?
Would the devs think something is wrong?
Would that be call for improvements to BH or adjustments to jedi?
If BH with first strike compared to a full template jedi should be equal then the overall numbers should support this. What if they aren’t even close?
Instead of trying to measure theoretically how "good" a player is with his template (BH or Jedi), why don't you do an analysis of whatJedi can do that a BH can't and what a BH can do and a Jedi can not. List all of them on a thread, then ask yourself does this give Jedi an unfair advantage? Include everything from foodto SEA's as the good players will use them (lets not forget about cyborg arms). Look at it objectively and then if you can draw a conclusion that there is an imbalance between Jedi and BH currently, your thread could be taken more seriously. Remember, don't use "Devs said this a month ago" or "I've seen some Jedi take out entire squads solo".....use currentfacts that you can get just by looking at the skills that Jedi and Non-Jedi professions provide.
Reason I say this is because most players preceive Jedi to be stronger but never look at the facts just write the same"Jedi are uberz, please nerf".If you never ask and investigatewhy the Jedi is more powerful than any non-Jedi template, how can you ask the devsto balance Jedi?
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
And when you do this, remember - no Jedi can do ALL of them at the same time. Just like no BH can be a MBH/MRifle/MCM, no Jedi can have cloak, avoid incap, stasis and be a MLS at the same time.
WookieOgre wrote:
ObiQuixote wrote:
All other things being equal if you tracked the number of hunts that result in combat and the number of hunts that are successful you should be close to 50/50. Right? Of course there’s going to be bad templates and inexperienced players on each side but they should balance each other out.
So for the sake of argument lets say we travel to three weeks after patch 20 and that number wasn’t 50% but closer to one or two percent, for the sake of argument.
Would that be a sign of imbalance?
Would the devs think something is wrong?
Would that be call for improvements to BH or adjustments to jedi?
If BH with first strike compared to a full template jedi should be equal then the overall numbers should support this. What if they aren’t even close?
Instead of trying to measure theoretically how "good" a player is with his template (BH or Jedi), why don't you do an analysis of whatJedi can do that a BH can't and what a BH can do and a Jedi can not. List all of them on a thread, then ask yourself does this give Jedi an unfair advantage? Include everything from foodto SEA's as the good players will use them (lets not forget about cyborg arms). Look at it objectively and then if you can draw a conclusion that there is an imbalance between Jedi and BH currently, your thread could be taken more seriously. Remember, don't use "Devs said this a month ago" or "I've seen some Jedi take out entire squads solo".....use currentfacts that you can get just by looking at the skills that Jedi and Non-Jedi professions provide.
Reason I say this is because most players preceive Jedi to be stronger but never look at the facts just write the same"Jedi are uberz, please nerf".If you never ask and investigatewhy the Jedi is more powerful than any non-Jedi template, how can you ask the devsto balance Jedi?
Which is why I said to post it and I will educate 
. Anything that is not possible/inaccurate I will glady attempt to correct. Heck maybe there is something they missed or something I missed. We won't know until a specific complaint is given, random whining that X is too powerful is a good way to get thetinfoil hat wearing crowd behind you but the devs will need a little more.
PvP as it is now is more balanced (obviously IMO)than ever before (Jedi included). Now I'm not saying somethings still don't need to be adjusted, like say chain mezzing/rooting has to be elminated just like spamming k/d dizzy was in the previous system (both Jedi/non-Jedi do it). Melee are still pretty good and Ranged are just dam nice if you know how to play to your templates strengths. That is the key and I think once people realize this there should be a lot less complaining.
You have much more faith in your fellow man than I do.
WookieOgre wrote:
Leatherneck_of_Alderaan wrote:
And when you do this, remember - no Jedi can do ALL of them at the same time. Just like no BH can be a MBH/MRifle/MCM, no Jedi can have cloak, avoid incap, stasis and be a MLS at the same time.
WookieOgre wrote:
ObiQuixote wrote:
All other things being equal if you tracked the number of hunts that result in combat and the number of hunts that are successful you should be close to 50/50. Right? Of course there’s going to be bad templates and inexperienced players on each side but they should balance each other out.
So for the sake of argument lets say we travel to three weeks after patch 20 and that number wasn’t 50% but closer to one or two percent, for the sake of argument.
Would that be a sign of imbalance?
Would the devs think something is wrong?
Would that be call for improvements to BH or adjustments to jedi?
If BH with first strike compared to a full template jedi should be equal then the overall numbers should support this. What if they aren’t even close?
Instead of trying to measure theoretically how "good" a player is with his template (BH or Jedi), why don't you do an analysis of whatJedi can do that a BH can't and what a BH can do and a Jedi can not. List all of them on a thread, then ask yourself does this give Jedi an unfair advantage? Include everything from foodto SEA's as the good players will use them (lets not forget about cyborg arms). Look at it objectively and then if you can draw a conclusion that there is an imbalance between Jedi and BH currently, your thread could be taken more seriously. Remember, don't use "Devs said this a month ago" or "I've seen some Jedi take out entire squads solo".....use currentfacts that you can get just by looking at the skills that Jedi and Non-Jedi professions provide.
Reason I say this is because most players preceive Jedi to be stronger but never look at the facts just write the same"Jedi are uberz, please nerf".If you never ask and investigatewhy the Jedi is more powerful than any non-Jedi template, how can you ask the devsto balance Jedi?
Which is why I said to post it and I will educate
PvP as it is now is more balanced (obviously IMO)than ever before (Jedi included). Now I'm not saying somethings still don't need to be adjusted, like say chain mezzing/rooting has to be elminated just like spamming k/d dizzy was in the previous system (both Jedi/non-Jedi do it). Melee are still pretty good and Ranged are just dam nice if you know how to play to your templates strengths. That is the key and I think once people realize this there should be a lot less complaining.
And there are a few things like the working and accessible armor break slices and better pearls that could have an effect on this. But all those little things will be reflected in the results. If something is successful more people will use it and it will affect the results. We really don't need to look for specific cause until we know there is a problem.
If I had to make a guess I would say the results will be Non CM / BH vs. full template will be produce very few BH wins. CM/BH might fair quite a bit better. If it turns out that way I would say both the BH/CM and FOTM jedi are overpowered. Not knowing either of those professions well I couldn't really say how to adjust for this but the method I would use for jedi is move some of most useful abilities around to the master box of the less used trees. You could also add jedi specific counters to the master BH box but if you did nothing else that would just make BH/CM even more powerful and would probably need hard nerfs for CM.
WookieOgre wrote:
ObiQuixote wrote:
Those are good points but with the justification to the 1v1 BH vs. full template being "it's supposed to be a fair fight due to first strike" I want to make sure BH get their end of the bargain on this. Maybe they will maybe they wont, time well tell. We can't really start looking for improvements or nerfs to one or the other professions until after publish 20 has run it's course for a while. As I said above you never know, it may turn out BH's are over powered.
And there are a few things like the working and accessible armor break slices and better pearls that could have an effect on this. But all those little things will be reflected in the results. If something is successful more people will use it and it will affect the results. We really don't need to look for specific cause until we know there is a problem.
If I had to make a guess I would say the results will be Non CM / BH vs. full template will be produce very few BH wins. CM/BH might fair quite a bit better. If it turns out that way I would say both the BH/CM and FOTM jedi are overpowered. Not knowing either of those professions well I couldn't really say how to adjust for this but the method I would use for jedi is move some of most useful abilities around to the master box of the less used trees. You could also add jedi specific counters to the master BH box but if you did nothing else that would just make BH/CM even more powerful and would probably need hard nerfs for CM.
It's my belief that the decision has been made to make Jedi a normal template if they decide to not join the FRS (when it's up). The devs have stated they were going to nerf Jedi down little by little however publish19 was/is the biggest nerf I've seen to the Jedi profession since Publish9. That's not saying it's wrong or right, I'm just saying the powerlevel of a Jedi compared to a non-Jedi was brought more in line with publish19 than anything I've previously seen. That tells me they are nerfing Jedi to a normal profession, maybe they think their done now, maybe not. One thing is for sure they will not stop until they think a balance has been achieved.
When the dev that made the comment about using first strike should balance the fact that Jedi is more powerful I do believe he was talking about the FRS. If not then he needs to consult with the other devs because there are quotes of them saying Jedi was being nerfed to a normal profession as a completed Padawan so their statements would definetly conflict. I do believe that is why you see so many changes in the next patch concerning BH missions, if Jedi are consideredbalanced to leave things as they are currently would be grossly unfair.
I think you're right. After BHs go after 226 after 226 and fail we will call for a nerf and we'll get it.
One intresting ting I have noticed is that radar range has become more efficent. A few weeks ago you couldnt spot anyone or anything more than 256m away in most cases. Today you can see alot of players at 512m and 1024m too.
Has anyone else noticed this increase in effectivness on radar?
It really makes 'first strike' almost impossible as they see you coming. On top of that you have to target TAB thru 15 pikets before you find your mark...if you dont use /target <name>, and that will be impossible after publ 20.
And even if you take your pray by surprise - big deal? He will force heal in a few sec, theres not much this 'first strike' makes to differance things. Not so BHs would stand up to 1.5 anyway.
diepa wrote:
ObiQuixote wrote:
All other things being equal if you tracked the number of hunts that result in combat and the number of hunts that are successful you should be close to 50/50. Right? Of course there’s going to be bad templates and inexperienced players on each side but they should balance each other out.
So for the sake of argument lets say we travel to three weeks after patch 20 and that number wasn’t 50% but closer to one or two percent, for the sake of argument.
Would that be a sign of imbalance?
Would the devs think something is wrong?
Would that be call for improvements to BH or adjustments to jedi?
If BH with first strike compared to a full template jedi should be equal then the overall numbers should support this. What if they aren’t even close?
If all things are equal, no you should not automatically be 50/50 or close to it. It is entirely possible that the Jedi you are hunting is better at Jedi then you are at bounty hunter. There are many BH's with more than a 50/50 record because they play BH better than the Jedi they hunted.
Just having the first strike is not enough, you need to use the first strike to your advantage. You wait until the Jedi is otherwise engaged, and you use your first strike to get him with his pants down. Just firing the first shot is not the advantage, you still have to use your brain. They Jedi is supposed to win in a straight up fight.