Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: Who we have to thank for 15k jedi missions
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GrausherraLoa
Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:26 pm
#1
Going through the jedi punchlist I ran across this little gem:
Please fix the double death penalty (losing 2 deaths on disconnect+killed)This happens with some regularity and is really going to hurt people if they are losing XP each death pre-knight.
Fixed.The penalty is only calculated on cloning now.
Perhas this has already been mentioned and I missed it..... but the jedi missions got nerfed because they felt this overwehlming urge to fix this jedi bug.... and then they only realizein the last few days of patch this could be a problem?
I'm really glad these people are working on a game and not something serious. What type of person recodes part of a project they are working on without a 100% check of all dependencies on it? I can just imagine how this scenario plays out:
Devoloper: Jedi arelosing exp twice if they die and get disconnected.... any ideas on a workaround?
a_coder_01: Well I could impliment a fix.. but that would take alot ofactual work...how about we just make them lose exp upon cloning?
/onlineethics.org/cases/robot/robot.html
GrausherraLoa
Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:27 pm
#2
Lost part of my post.. here it is in its entirety:
Going through the jedi punchlist I ran across this little gem:
Please fix the double death penalty (losing 2 deaths on disconnect+killed) This happens with some regularity and is really going to hurt people if they are losing XP each death pre-knight.
Fixed. The penalty is only calculated on cloning now.
Perhas this has already been mentioned and I missed it..... but the jedi missions got nerfed because they felt this overwehlming urge to fix this jedi bug.... and then they only realize in the last few days of patch this could be a problem?
I'm really glad these people are working on a game and not something serious. What type of person recodes part of a project they are working on without a 100% check of all dependencies on it? I can just imagine how this scenario plays out:
Devoloper: Jedi are losing exp twice if they die and get disconnected.... any ideas on a workaround?
a_coder_01: Well I could impliment a fix.. but that would take alot of actual work... how about we just make them lose exp upon cloning?
Developer: Hmmmm... I don't see any immediate problems with that, I recon that could work.... go ahead.
Now call me crazy, but whenever I change a part of a system, ANY SYSTEM, I check to make sure that it's not going to cause problems with other related parts. This doesn't just apply to game design, this applies to anything that you are creating.
To the developers... I just would like to thank them for deciding that they wanted a job developing games.... I shudder to think the what would have happened had any of them went on to be in charge of a real project... I mean seriously would anyone really want these same people overseeing a engineering or construction job?
A word of advice to anyone looking to going into software design, coding, or to anyone who has dreams of leading a project team, pick up a book called "Attack of the Killer Robot" by Richard G Epstein. It's a crappy little book aimed at teaching young codemonkeys and future teamleaders that there is a reason to actually care about the work that you do. While it's pretty corny there is really a lesson to be learned within. If you are too lazy heres a link to a pretty good overview:
http://onlineethics.org/cases/robot/robot.html
Perhaps I am being a little harsh, and some people may not care for what i have said, but you can't be afraid of words that speak the truth, and I have no doubt that I am. There is no excuse for releasing a poor product and backing it up with poor fixes.
"I don't want to spend my time working on this when I could be doing xxxxx" is not an excuse.
"My project manager said this had to be done by day xx" is not an excuse.
"We are understaffed" is not an excuse.
"This has to be released by day xx to compete with the competiters." is not an excuse.
I am amazed as I look through the SWG site that people would actually allow their name to be attached to work with an online game such as this... I sure wouldn't want mine.
Ranthalas
Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:55 pm
#3
The actual problem that we have, and it plagues developers everywhere is this: The public will accept shoddy workmanship in order to get even a taste of what they want.
This has been proven over and over again. The reason this causes a problem is because the Marketing department controls the deadlines in almost every company I've ever worked for. Marketing people have no technical clue at all and when your job is on the line you do what has to be done. This is what causes problems with games like this. Until the public puts their money where their mouths are as a collective group this isn't going to change.
unde
Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:59 pm
#4
Ranthalas wrote:The actual problem that we have, and it plagues developers everywhere is this: The public will accept shoddy workmanship in order to get even a taste of what they want.This has been proven over and over again. The reason this causes a problem is because the Marketing department controls the deadlines in almost every company I've ever worked for. Marketing people have no technical clue at all and when your job is on the line you do what has to be done. This is what causes problems with games like this. Until the public puts their money where their mouths are as a collective group this isn't going to change.
Awsome point, this game shouldnt even be out yet.
Schadwe13
Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:01 pm
#5
Doesn't this quote bother anyone else???:
"Please fix the double death penalty (losing 2 deaths on disconnect+killed)This happens with some regularity and is really going to hurt people if they are losing XP each death pre-knight."
**edit**?!?!?! "losing 2 deaths on disconnect+killed" ???? Jedi JUST ADMITTED THEY'RE EXPLOITING BY DISCONNECTING TO AVOID A DEATH and when the exploit backfires they complain about not being able to cheat?!?!?!?!!?!? Am I the only sane one here?!?!?!?! THEN THE DEVS HAVE THE AUDACITY TO ACTUALY FIX IT SO THEY CAN EXPLOIT PROPERLY!?!?! GGAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
I think I'm going to go have an aneurism...
Schadwe
"Please fix the double death penalty (losing 2 deaths on disconnect+killed)This happens with some regularity and is really going to hurt people if they are losing XP each death pre-knight."
**edit**?!?!?! "losing 2 deaths on disconnect+killed" ???? Jedi JUST ADMITTED THEY'RE EXPLOITING BY DISCONNECTING TO AVOID A DEATH and when the exploit backfires they complain about not being able to cheat?!?!?!?!!?!? Am I the only sane one here?!?!?!?! THEN THE DEVS HAVE THE AUDACITY TO ACTUALY FIX IT SO THEY CAN EXPLOIT PROPERLY!?!?! GGAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
I think I'm going to go have an aneurism...
Schadwe
GrausherraLoa
Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:23 pm
#6
This is quite true Ranthalas, but just because you CAN do something does not mean that you should, eh? 
Sony is a large enough corperation that the delay of a few month would not have broken them. They had to cut off the inclusion of other fetures they wished ot have in the initial release. Perhaps if they had spent less time cramming every avalible feature and extra into the game that they could and spent more time testing and fixing the features they had laready implemented then the game would not be in the state it is today.
Certian things people complain about aren't a concern in this area. Balance in the game isnt a concern because Balance between different classes(builds) is an illusion. However, fixing bugs within functionality inside a game is.
Maybe I am just spoiled. I played Ultima Online when I first came into Online games. It was amazing bugfree(compared to SWG). Albiet it did not have a lot of content, but it wasn't riddled with crippling bugs that interefered with my day-to-day gameplay.
Then I moved onto EQ. It was a rather radical change, and while the bugs were more prevelant, they once again did not interefer with gameplay often.
Now coming to SWG is like a slap in the face. I would love to see the statistics of the number of bugged missions on dantooine for one day. With literally thousands of people running missions there a day, and a large rate of mission bugs, that millions if not tens of millions of credits that people are screwed out of a day.And that is only one small bug in a sea of them.
Now there are alot of things people can do to make a difference. Of course the least effective route is all the people who threaten to cancel theeir account. Quite frankly this is extremely asinine and ineffective. Petitions are also a bad idea, and mostly ignored. Perhaps the best thing people can do is continue to post on the boards and supply CONSTRUCTIVE critiisim, and of course to play on the test center and send in feedback.
BJohnny83
Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:42 pm
#7
Actually the first thing I thought of when Thunderheart posted the reasoning behind the nerf was exactly what this guy just posted. I had remember reading a few days back where they changed the way Jedi lost experience. And then they cause another problem because of what THEY did. And the fact that they did not find out about what THEY cause until 2 hrs before code lock was simply sad. I lost a lot of respect for this team as a whole at that time. And do you see those guys even owning up to their mistake or even appologizing for it? I do not see the fact that he said it causes great frustation with the community an apology either. And their proposed fix!? What a joke....and when will they have time to do it? I mean we would hate for them to take a day out of fixing all of the Jedi needs. Which is what causes this problem in the first place! The constant giving and giving and giving.
You know the best thing would have been to change it back to the way it was until THEY came up with a fix for the original problem and instead they cause the pain we as bounty hunters feel right now. Instead of giving the jedi one small inconvience(heaven forbid) they decide to nerf the whole bounty hunter profession AGAIN. If that did not show people the priorities of the development team as a whole before then this has to.
They could have changed it back to the way it was, but they felt the need to further baby the Jedi at the expense of the bounty hunter profession. They decided who was more important! Quite sad.
Oh and I am sure that Jedi dying and then being disconnected and losing double the experience happened A LOT. Yeah right. Well now they must live with what they have done. By the time they get to fixing the problem Jedi will be so numerous the population controls will be gone. As has already been said if bounty hunters are meant to help keep Jedi down then we should have had a lot of fixes at the same time as them.
But the developers have spoken and I guess now we have to speak back with our wallets.
Husscow
Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:57 pm
#8
looks like its time to quit if the screw mbh up this much even in the clone wars almost all jedi are dead so give us some love devs or change the time period 1000 year ago
Ranthalas
Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:05 pm
#9
Please understand I wasn't trying to make an excuse for the developers just pointing out what likely happened. Coming from a computer engineering background myself, I am well aware of being told to do the unlikely in an impossible time frame and the things that are done in order to get there so you keep your job, with the idea that you can fix the known issues at a later date before they get out of hand.
While you're correct that Sony is large enough that they could hvae pushed back the release date of this game without it adversely effecting their bottom line, what it appears to me you may be failing to see is that the marketing guru's didn't feel this was a viable solution. I imagine the conversation went something like this:
Dateline: June 20th 2003
Marketing VP at SOE: Ok guys, we have a release date of June 26th 2003 for Star Wars Galaxies. We need to have the product ready for ship two days prior to this. So whatever clean up is left we need to do it now and have the servers up and running.
Senior Developer for SWG at SOE: We can't make that deadline we still have game breaking bugs, issues with profession balance and coding errors that need to be worked out. If we release it in this state the game will be fundamentally flawed and the public will be unhappy with it.
Marketing VP at SOE: I suggest that you fix these bugs in the time alloted as we have made a promise to the consumer to have this product delivered by the 26th and we WILL meet that deadline.
Senior Developer for SWG: Its not going to happen. We just cannot lock down and correct everything that needs to be corrected in that short of a time frame.
Guy who writes the paychecks: Have the game ready for ship in the best possible condition by the 24th or we'll get someone who can.
Senior Dev: *sigh* Ok, ok we'll have something ready for you.
Sadly I've heard this conversation many times. I've even been the guy protesting the lack of available time. Unfortunately, Marketing controls the money, therefore they make the rules. Devs and engineers try, but in the end they cut what corners they think they can, not an appropriate solution, and do their best. I do have my sympathies for the developers as far as the problems that were in at release. What I don't have any sympathy for is the continued attitude that we're recieving from the devs that its ok to continue to cut corners in order to further whatever agenda they have.
Quidium
Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:30 pm
#10
The last game I ever played that had no bugs.
Fallout 2.
Circa 1996?
Just shows where thetrend is, not on quality but on quantiy, like someone stated. When the public wil laccept shoddy workmanship for a taste of what could be, then why make the effort?
FinMaxa
Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:34 pm
#11
"Wait for the Combat Bal.....ack...ACK.....AGGHHHHH..."
From Peoria Journal Star:
FinMaxa, while writing a post on the Star Wars Galaxies forums, suddenly choked on a large mass of bull feces. He was pronounced dead on the scene. Memorials can be sent to "Fix the BH" care of Starwarsgalaxies.com
KaratonCha
Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:09 pm
#12
amen to that brother.
Think what what would happen if the same poeple were to desgin a building, i want to be an architect so i chose this as an analogy.
They put the developer in charge of the project with coder_01 as the actually blue-printer or desginer of the building.
developer: theresa problem with the stuctures desgin the base demension with topple do to an adomalty with the desgin of the base of the building what will we do.
coder_01/ desginer: well i could redesgin the base of the building allowing it not to topple but im to lazy and snice no one here really cares execpt for our clients, WHICH IS US, ill just ad a few T beams here and here and that SHOULD hold it.
developer: sounds good and if it doesnt work out we've already been payed haha.
*one week later the building colapses at the grand opening due to the collapse of one of the T beams*
Since techniclly the coder and the developer did nothing wrong they are not sued and 1000 poeple are dead
this relates to the 1000 BH's quiting
im glad that the poeple who make stars wars arent building buildings lol
sounds stupid but its a fact.
Eldrikk
Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:16 pm
#13
Schadwe13 wrote:
Doesn't this quote bother anyone else???:
"Please fix the double death penalty (losing 2 deaths on disconnect+killed)This happens with some regularity and is really going to hurt people if they are losing XP each death pre-knight."
**edit**?!?!?! "losing 2 deaths on disconnect+killed" ???? Jedi JUST ADMITTED THEY'RE EXPLOITING BY DISCONNECTING TO AVOID A DEATH and when the exploit backfires they complain about not being able to cheat?!?!?!?!!?!? Am I the only sane one here?!?!?!?! THEN THE DEVS HAVE THE AUDACITY TO ACTUALY FIX IT SO THEY CAN EXPLOIT PROPERLY!?!?! GGAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
I think I'm going to go have an aneurism...
Schadwe
Man you are about as stupid as they come. Nobody in their right mind would disconnect in order to keep from getting killed... rofl the only thing that accomplishes is actually getting killed.
Next time keep your stupid mouth shut and you might actually have the appearance of being wise or else if you open your mouth you will end up showing everyone how stupid you truly are.
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