Bounty Hunter Archive

Thread: BH commentary, 2 years in

Niles_Sjostrom
Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:15 pm
#1




I've been a MBH for over 1 year and 7 months now. Basically I was among the first group of MBH on the Tarquinas server. So when I give you examples of how the profession has progressed, trust it as close to accurate from my memory. I know there are tons of MBH from that same period so I'm not claiming to be some Master MBH or deserving of special reward just that I have lived through all this.


First MBH was a good profession that had low defenses. To make MBH an attractive profession and to reward our penalty of low defense, we were given incredible control over our opponent's state. When the terminals began to have Jedi on them, around the time of the Jedi penalty being a real penalty, Jedi complained like mad. Back then they actually had somewhat of a real reason to complain. That was the time SOE could've really fixed the issues realistically by simply lowering the Jedi penalty. That alone would have solved everything, leaving everything else untouched.



First nerf: The solution SOE took, drop basically all control over states that MBH had. By the way, did we get better defenses to accommodate the loss of state control? -No. This was the first major nerf of our profession.



Second nerf: Then later on realizing that no one was taking up the MBH profession anymore because we were turned into Girl Scouts with a pistol, SOE dropped the need for Master Scout to progress into the BH skill tree. Actually this was a bad move. When MBH took all your skill points, or didn't leave you enough afterward to pick up anything else, there could still be a case to make both professions elite professions. Also making both have penalties for lost combat with each other and thus allowing the MBH to get their state control back. So there was still a solution available at this point as well. To date what had Jedi lost? Nothing. In fact the Jedi grind was becoming much easier -don't fool yourselves here Jedi, you know it was. Around this time I believe the grind was still very hard but now the way to unlock Jedi was made perfectly clear to everyone in the game with the Holocrons. This actually was a decent idea as it made the Jedi-hopeful do an incredible amount of work to get the most powerful profession in the game. Sort of makes sense on that end right?



Third nerf:Even with the MBH losing all our control over states, we were forced to become more resourceful so MBH began to hunt in packs. You'd get a person with a specific skill. One "template" would specialze in control over states and only have BH 3000 while one would be MBH for some of the attacks and you'd bring a riffleman for ranged attacks, etc. So when the BH found a collective way to succeed at the Jedi hunt the Jedi again complained. -Don't flame here either Jedi, you know you did. The simple solution here would have been to give MBH state control back. Give it to MBH alone and reintroduce Master Scout as neccessary for MBH. That would allow a MBH to hunt alone again. But what happened was SOE did nothing for a period. The "war" began to heat up and take more of an attitude of hatred during this time period. Jedi were fairly resourceful aswell and during this span began to form Jedi only guilds to hunt in the safety of a group. There was nothing wrong with either being grouped at all. Didn't Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker stick together and fight together? Didn't Boba Fett use a partner? So in essence SOE's no action here was the big nerf. This was the last period of time when they could've still saved the BH-Jedi "conflict" with very little work. After this SOE just began to stamp their own personal image on the Star Wars franchise and the nerfs began to make less and less sense in the Star Wars Universe.



Fourth Nerf: The Combat Upgrade. This was an admission that the game was heading for disaster by SOE. How many games do you all know of that have ever undergone a major "upgrade" after a year of having paying customers playing the game they had bought over 1 year before? I have never played another MMO and am not an MMO fan so I do not claim to know for sure, but I'd bet the answer is none or very few successful games. It is true that the CU made the hunt a bit better however, SOE has since gone 3 steps backward which already ruined the 1 step forward they tried to take. The CU cleaned the game up for most professions but did ruin it for a few others. If I remember this was around the time the medic profession became useless unless you decide to go to a "doctor" or higher medical profession with it. The CU made it almost too easy for a MBH that only had Scout 4000 and Master Marksman to hunt a fully templated Jedi. Rightfully so the Jedi were angry. However, remember that up until now, all the nerfing was done to MBH so a bit to the Jedi was justified. But of course the collective voice of a bunch of people that can play a video game as much as you have to in order to get Jedi will be much louder than those of us that don't powergame SWG. So SOE buckled again.



Fifth nerf: SOE took out Jedi ability to group. This forced a sixth nerf. Neither should've ever happened as they make absolutly no sense. Also around this point SOE took out the requirement of BH to have Master Marksman. Again a skill that should be required as it was originally. This made MBH a normal profession at this point, in the same style with Smuggler, Carbineer, Riffleman and Pistoleer. SOE was forced to do this to allow BH to "template" hunt because we now had no defenses and no control over states yet were expected to hunt the toughest profession in the game. Does that make sense at all? So SOE realized that we needed to create a MBH that was better than what they had given us. Even here they could've still fixed the BH profession. The simple fix would have been to force BH to get Master Scout and Master Marksman, or a combination of lower professions that would force the MBH to use all their skill points. Force a Jedi to use all of their skill points. Make both elite professions. Make the Jedi grind 25% (or a certain percentage) tougher to accomplish than the MBH and thus make Jedi about that percentage tougher in combat. This would have created an environment similar to the original. You'd have the Jedi that don't really want Jedi getting to frustrated by the MBH attacks and they'd stop Jedi. Those that really wanted Jedi would enguage in combat, as it is an essential part ofthe profession. The MBH should be the only BH that could hunt Jedi and a success rate of about 30-40% should be achieved. This would still allow the Jedi to be the toughest profession but also allow a MBH to hunt a Jedi and have some feeling of fun. Both sides should lose something for a loss against each other, be it experience or something else. Jedi should lose a higher amount, but only based on how much tougher their template would be. So if Jedi was 25% more skilled, they would lose 25% more exp in a combat death than the MBH. This would've created a fair environment for all.



Sixth nerf: This was around the time of Publish 20, or Nerf 20 rather. At this point they took the BH ability to group and took out the ability of a BH to search out a Jedi to hunt. This is flawed, really. Think about the way it currently works. You get a mark and don't actually know the value. Added the faction was a good idea but taking off the names was a bad one, overall. Griefing is part of both professions. When you have humans hunting humans it will take on that attitude. Do you think the Iraqi insurgents are killing US troops and saying, "Dang that was a shame." ? Do you think American troops went into Afghanistan and said, "You know I understand we are here to kill terrorists but man, I sure hope we have a fair and balanced fight and no one gets mean toward the other side." ? Or do you think racial slurs and insults were said on both sides? Think about it.


Taking the names off was stupid, and here is exactlly why. There are tons of BH that actively hunt out there that are guilded. Many of those guildmates are Jedi, have Jedi friends or the guilds even have lists of Jedi they have "peace accords" with. These are specific Jedi that those BH will not hunt. Under nerf 20 we may be picking those Jedi up. However we will not know until we have already begun to spend money and time. Once an Arakyd droid is sent out by the BH, that BH has a vested interest and has begun to spend money. Sure it is true 1 or 2 won't matter, however what happens when a BH gets 5 or 6 marks out of 10 they won't hunt? Then out of the 3 or 4 they can, what's the success rate going to be? So basically the potential is there for many BH to need to hunt 30-40 marks just to get 1 kill. How is that fun for that BH in the context of a video game at all? How will that help to keep the Jedi population lower at all either? Again remember, there are ways of accomplishing this while still creating a fun environment for Jedi. Right now the video game fun meter is about 95% Jedi - 5% BH, maybe 5%, more like 98%-2% though.


Taking the ability of BH to group was rediculous as well. Both BH and Jedi need to be able to group.Grouping isone of thebasic premises of an MMO.


The price issue is retarded (sorry but I just can't think of a strong enough word here. I am NOT trying to offend with the words use, please note that). When would Boba Fett take a Jedi mark not knowing anything about the Jedi itself and further, not knowing the price he would be paid? Then once you kill a Jedi you get a "bonus." That makes sense I heard a lot of times Boba Fett took a mission to kill Ben Kenobi and then got paid more for killing him a 2nd time. Think about that.



I know the story. Almost every profession has been systematically nerfed in many ways. I believe there is a real effort by SOE to turn this game into Jedi Power Battles Online, with a few more planetary maps and a monthly fee. If there isn't an effort, then they are doing this inadvertently.



The simple solution remains the same. Create an environment where both Jedi and MBH require the use of all the player's skill points. Make both professions elite. Give MBH alone the ability to hunt Jedi. To justify the use of all the MBH skill points give them back their ability to control an apponent's state, or give them defenses that are about 25% weaker than Jedi. The state control would go farther in creating a Star Wars feeling combat situation however. Give both the ability to group again because this makes sense in the SW concept and is a basic need for MMOs. Make Jedi about 25% stronger than MBH and make the MBH success rate about 25-40%, maybe as low as 35%. Make both lose something for a combat loss in PvP battles between Jedi and MBH. Whatever the strength difference is, make that the difference in the loss as well (again, Jedi 25% stronger, they lose 25% more of whatever we would both lose).



I just hope SOE gets smart and fixes the issues soon before all the real Star Wars fans get sick and leave. The subscriptions are already dropping fast. Maybe SOE really doesn't care though. I hope many of the real Star Wars fans make our minds up in the next few publishes. I think 2+ years is plenty of time to get beyond the payment beta period. Don't you?


By the way,where is theGalactic Civil War (the entire premise of the original trilogy and thus the SW moviesby the way).

Message Edited by Niles_Sjostrom on 08-11-2005 02:30 PM




-Hey SOE, here's a novel idea. Instead of trying to get new customers to replace the lost ones. Try fixing the bugs so you get new customers and KEEP the old ones too! Next time you delete a post that puts SOE in a bad light, think about giving us reasons to put you in a good light instead. ...you see when someone buys the game it means they want to like it. When they cancel an account it means you made someone who liked the game dislike it. How's that good business again?
Where does a 90% drop is customer base equal good business? SOE
Aanu
Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:19 pm
#2

You had me up until you look at the CU as a nerf to BH. Are you serious?!?!?!?!?! With the CU everyone and their grandmother jumped to MBH.

Heres the deal:

A year ago a solo MBH was NOT taking out a solo full template. Today many solo MBHs are routinely taking out full templates. Thats M. Rifleman, or M. Carbs, or M. Pistoleer combos..not just MCMs. Do these BH win EVERY fight, probably not, but noone ever said BH was supposed to equal Jedi.

Message Edited by Aanu on 08-11-2005 05:22 PM



Aanu Calderis
Master Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunters Alliance -BHA-
AIM: AanuMBH
Scylla BHA Website


Neutral Imperial Agent
Niles_Sjostrom
Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:25 pm
#3







Aanu wrote:
You had me up until you look at the CU as a nerf to BH. Are you serious?!?!?!?!?! With the CU everyone and their grandmother jumped to MBH.

Heres the deal:

A year ago a solo MBH was NOT taking out a solo full template. Today many solo MBHs are routinely taking out full templates. Thats M. Rifleman, or M. Carbs, or M. Pistoleer combos..not just MCMs. Do these BH win EVERY fight, probably not, but noone ever said BH was supposed to equal Jedi.

Message Edited by Aanu on 08-11-2005 05:22 PM




Did I say that in that post either? In fact if you read the whole post you'd see the case is that I think Jedi need to win 70% of the time. I also said I think the CU was good but was 1 step forward compared to the3 steps back SOE has taken since then. In the long run the CU's benefits have almost all been canceled out by now. Any full tempated Jedi that knows how to use their template doesn't die. Bottom line. There are tons of fully temp'ed Jedi that think they underestand how, but do not in actuality know how to use the temp.

Message Edited by Niles_Sjostrom on 08-11-2005 03:02 PM




-Hey SOE, here's a novel idea. Instead of trying to get new customers to replace the lost ones. Try fixing the bugs so you get new customers and KEEP the old ones too! Next time you delete a post that puts SOE in a bad light, think about giving us reasons to put you in a good light instead. ...you see when someone buys the game it means they want to like it. When they cancel an account it means you made someone who liked the game dislike it. How's that good business again?
Where does a 90% drop is customer base equal good business? SOE
Aanu
Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:41 pm
#4



Niles_Sjostrom wrote:

I also said I think the CU was good but was 1 step forward compared to the 2 steps back SOE has taken since then. In the long run the CU's benefits have almost all been canceled out by now. Any full tempated Jedi that knows how to use their template doesn't die. Bottom line.




So is it good or bad? 1 step forward, 2 steps back gives a net negative sum.

"In the long run the CU's benefits have almost all been canceled out by now."

I can only say, "wha?!?". Honestly, no way. Full template Jedi are dying at the hands of solo RANGED! MBHs now more than ever.

Yes, all things being equal Jedi are the superior combat class but that was never supposed to change. So take someone using "optimized" tactics for BH against someone with "optimized" tactics for Jedi and yes, in theory the Jedi should always win. But in practice, victories are hardly rare at all. What does that tell you?

Yes, there are alot of draws, and yes many Jedi are EXTREMELY good escape artists. In the event that a Jedi flees and gets away, I consider it a setback. I mean, c'mon, Jedi are running away from us now!!! I dont know about you, but pre-cu I recall full temp Jedi lying on their backs blocking shot after shot just laughing. And yes, I had uber guns and knew what I was doing.



Aanu Calderis
Master Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunters Alliance -BHA-
AIM: AanuMBH
Scylla BHA Website


Neutral Imperial Agent
mindspat
Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:02 pm
#5

It's always good to hear someones opinion even when it's in left field.


I have one question for you, if you think this game has turned into something so terribly unfun then why are you playing it?



As for Jedi, it is NOT the best profession nor is it the most fun profession. The fixes relating to BH/Jedi missions should never have happened although the developers lacked the foresight required to identify a budding issue. Thankfluly it's working now.


As for the "Alpha" class BH, I agree. There is more of a need to creat alpha class characters although with each introduction there's a greater alienation of the masses.


Overall, I agree with about 5% of your views.






Pick me !!

Brought to you by Mindspat®
Crash752
Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:03 pm
#6

You must have been playing a different game. I've been a bounty hunter for 2 years now and it has never been more fun or viable in combat than it is right now.



Ehon - Radiant




Overseer
Niles_Sjostrom
Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:06 pm
#7



Take the first nerf, that's it. They could've fixed it back then, about 1 year and 8 months ago. Should we have ever needed a CU? Consider that. The CU itself was great. Since then SOE has gone back to their old ways. There's nothing hard to understand there. I think the CU itself was good. I think since then it's been all bad. I don't think the CU should've ever happened. The game should've been released as a finished product, working and playable. Don't kid anyone, the game needed the CU because it was broken. How many professional companies can get away with saying to a large client, "Hey guys, darn it if we didn't mess up really bad. Well now we're just going to change the rules." ? Would clients switch companies at that point? Yes is the answer by the way. The game is heading down a bad road again. I've seen this film and it isn't Star Wars. It's Flash Gordon doing a poor impression of Star Wars. It's Jedi Outcast Online.


We pay to play this game yet we are still in beta. Pretty sad really.


As for me playing it still, I play because I am a Star Wars fan. However, when the GCW goes fully out the window, so do I. It's close. You remember the Galactic Civil War. The entire premise of the original trilogy. When rebels control everything, are they really rebels at that point? Aren't the just "in power?"

Message Edited by Niles_Sjostrom on 08-11-2005 03:09 PM




-Hey SOE, here's a novel idea. Instead of trying to get new customers to replace the lost ones. Try fixing the bugs so you get new customers and KEEP the old ones too! Next time you delete a post that puts SOE in a bad light, think about giving us reasons to put you in a good light instead. ...you see when someone buys the game it means they want to like it. When they cancel an account it means you made someone who liked the game dislike it. How's that good business again?
Where does a 90% drop is customer base equal good business? SOE
Niles_Sjostrom
Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:14 pm
#8


I should also say that I have no doubt that a "powergamer" could probably beat most players up with an entertainer/doctor template. However, many of the players in this game are Star Wars fans from a different generation and we don't have 40 hours a week to play a video game. For those of us casual gamers, or at least the ones I know in the game, many of them simply feel the game is not a level playing field for everyone. If you have that feeling it's bad for that group of people, end of story. Perhaps the time of day for this post (mid afternoon) is going to get more powergamers and people spending all day online as opposed to those with a day off or a lunchbreak here and there. But I value anyone's opinion who doesn't simply throw insults around. Usually it's a lack of respect for opinions other than one's own that causes insults. I've seen a few to many smaller ones so far here, again, perhaps the time of day and the neiche that is on right now.

Message Edited by Niles_Sjostrom on 08-11-2005 03:16 PM




-Hey SOE, here's a novel idea. Instead of trying to get new customers to replace the lost ones. Try fixing the bugs so you get new customers and KEEP the old ones too! Next time you delete a post that puts SOE in a bad light, think about giving us reasons to put you in a good light instead. ...you see when someone buys the game it means they want to like it. When they cancel an account it means you made someone who liked the game dislike it. How's that good business again?
Where does a 90% drop is customer base equal good business? SOE
Ekul05
Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:23 pm
#9






Crash752 wrote:

You must have been playing a different game. I've been a bounty hunter for 2 years now and it has never been more fun or viable in combat than it is right now.



Ehon - Radiant







To this I'd agree....


....early on, it was bleed shot, eye shot, eye shot, eye shot, eye shot, incap...rinse and repeat. That sort of ability to destroy the mind by spamming eye shot eary on gave BH's a bad rep, but a potent opponent, Right now, it's much more enjoyable than every, paired with plenty of other of templates.
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