Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: Why your local DE is leaving
Page 1 of 2
Sandsifter
Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:40 am
#1
I was asked this quite a bit by loyal customers when I told them I was quitting. Since I specialized in BH gear, I felt I owed an explanation to you all...
When this game was first launched, the question that usually came up was why only one toon per server. The answer was obvious, a interdependant player run economy based on player made goods. This was a fact everyone understood, which is why I was so shocked to hear Tiggs say it WASNT at Celebration 3.
Tiggs wasnt around at launch so I can only assume she doesnt know or doesnt care about original development teams promises and goals of game. But it seems pretty obvious when the one-toon rule was in place and loot drops were 99% of the time inferior, that this game in fact was centered around player crafters.
Yet this current dev team and their voice (tiggs) decided to blow those ideas out the door with the CU.....
1. ADK - Huge mistake as this allowed players to get around that pesky item decay issue. Interdependancy means you constantly need to buy more armor and more weapons (too bad that never applied to droids and houses). Now if your rich enough you can just buy 10 ADK and never need a crafter's goods again. This item should have never been introduced, or at the very least one item per account and NOT tradable.
2. Kashyyyk - They might as well have said "kiss our as_" to crafters everywhere with this expansion. Loot reward items that were equal if not superior to player made goods. This broke a 2 year promise (5 years if you go all way back to first development) that this would never happen.
3. Cap - The caps introduced in CU made pretty much all 12 point smiths with 2 years worth of work useless. Caps were put in place because new development team couldnt find a way to balance them within a level based system (which should have never been put in either). Seeking to make better items was always what kept me going. Getting 1% more better stats was always my goal. Now with caps, any average 850 oq resources and 10 experiment points made a smith equal to me. In essense why bother playing if anyone can come in and be my equal in a few weeks.
4. Resource deeds - the whole point of a mmorpg (and ive played several) is to make oneself better than your fellow players. You accomplish this mostly by having played for years. A simple reward really as every crafter would agree a 2+ year vet should have an edge over a 2 week one. Well thanks to resource deeds, any newb smith can come in and get that tolium gas OQ 1000 with a deed.
5. Self powered harvester deeds - Some crafters may like them but its also a mistake. There was a small community of fusion power miners who quit over this. On our server (eclipse) we had WarpCore Power (run by 3 players) and LaForge Power that were huge. These guys are all gone now because player dependancy was killed once again thanks to an item that doesnt belong in this game.
Ulitmately, crafters who just started will find themselves leaving for the same reasons vets have left. Player dependancy is a must if you want crafters to be necessary. I think its obvious though with Tiggs statement to me and devs actions that this is no longer the case. They want crafting marginalized or gone soon. I wont be surprised at all to hear of NPC vendors eventually selling basic gear.
Broken promises SOE.....its okay and expected to make some changes but the CU changes the entire core of the game. This isnt what the CU was supposed to be about, or at least thats what you told us for 2 years while it was being worked on.
Well I made a promise to a dev in beta 3 years ago that I would be playing this game till the last server was shut down....broken promise too.
Good luck with the game fellow star wars fans, its going to need it.
Icebolt - FS 12 Point Master Droid Engineer
Droid Vendors located seconds from Anchorhead at -99, -4980
Specialing in BH Gear
Thunderbolt - jedi old-school
If Im not online, Im still playing Fallout 2
Ezzah
Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:58 am
#2
Out of interest, which game are you headed for?
If you know of a decent mmo feel free to share
If you know of a decent mmo feel free to share
Sandsifter
Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:05 am
#3
Im going to give Dark and Light a try. Its going to open beta November 1st I believe (early Nov I heard). If that doesnt work out, then Pirates of Burning Sea comes out in December. And then next year you have Lord of the Ring, hopefully Fallen Earth (post-appocolyptic mmorpg), Dungeons and Dragons, and several others in the works.
Icebolt - FS 12 Point Master Droid Engineer
Droid Vendors located seconds from Anchorhead at -99, -4980
Specialing in BH Gear
Thunderbolt - jedi old-school
If Im not online, Im still playing Fallout 2
Argon-Neon
Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:11 am
#4
Icebolt, I agree wilth you and what you've said about the player-driven economy. It was a dream for me in beta3.. so flippin cool.. and the potentail whe things opened up.. WOW!
I hate to see the game (and my server in particular) losing a good crafterlike yourself, especiallydue to stupid, poorly-conceived rewards. I'm not sure if it was intentional, but all these veteran rewards are eliminating crafters fairly quickly.
Hate to see you go, but I completely understand.
Cheers!
Anarchicgorilla
Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:32 am
#5
1. ADK - Huge mistake as this allowed players to get around that pesky item decay issue. Interdependancy means you constantly need to buy more armor and more weapons (too bad that never applied to droids and houses). Now if your rich enough you can just buy 10 ADK and never need a crafter's goods again. This item should have never been introduced, or at the very least one item per account and NOT tradable.
I donot see the adk as a mistake. The mistake is armor and weapons that decay in a week or two. You pup a weapon or actually use your amor and in a week it is gone.
At this decay rate it is necessary to ADK just out of necessity. If I could pup a weapon and it would last a few months of game play. I would very much consider replacing my weapon every 3 or 4 months. But as it goes a puped weapon that you use will not last more then a week before the decay makes it ineffective.
This also could have been balaced ifa crafter could actualy repair their stuff to some sort of worthwhile state. As it is now repairing an item is risky and good results mean you lose around 50-100 points of the condition. With weapons around 900 condition on craft that means 3 - 5 repairs and its about done for.
Then add to that the crafters go in a rage when new better weapons come. This is a mistake we should hope for new and better weapons every 4 months or so. This will ensure that old weapons become outdated like they should, and keep demand for current weapons. However, weaponsmiths will craft hundreds of weapons then when new ones come throw a fit, becuase now their old will not sell.If weaponssmiths had patience and crafted to refill demand this would never be an issue.
As for armor it too must be adked for another reason... tapes. Tapes cost millions and whats the point of putting tapesin a set of armor that will not last 2 weeks? Armor should be somewhat like a saber... and you should be able to remove your tapes from it. If this was in play you would see alot more demand.
(tied to final comment)
2. Kashyyyk - They might as well have said "kiss our as_" to crafters everywhere with this expansion. Loot reward items that were equal if not superior to player made goods. This broke a 2 year promise (5 years if you go all way back to first development) that this would never happen.
Agree. They should have made these weapons craftable.
3. Cap - The caps introduced in CU made pretty much all 12 point smiths with 2 years worth of work useless. Caps were put in place because new development team couldnt find a way to balance them within a level based system (which should have never been put in either). Seeking to make better items was always what kept me going. Getting 1% more better stats was always my goal. Now with caps, any average 850 oq resources and 10 experiment points made a smith equal to me. In essense why bother playing if anyone can come in and be my equal in a few weeks.
Agree. The cap is not needed. Especially now as speed damage and sac all mean something. If you wanted to make a 50 sac pistol at the cost of 100 damage you should be able to. The caps helped nothing, they just made"cookie cutter" weapons.
4. Resource deeds - the whole point of a mmorpg (and ive played several) is to make oneself better than your fellow players. You accomplish this mostly by having played for years. A simple reward really as every crafter would agree a 2+ year vet should have an edge over a 2 week one. Well thanks to resource deeds, any newb smith can come in and get that tolium gas OQ 1000 with a deed.
Well i would agree with you if the resources of old were able to be harvested by new crafters. As it is now a new crafter has to buy any resource to be successful. (tied to final comment)
Ulitmately, crafters who just started will find themselves leaving for the same reasons vets have left. Player dependancy is a must if you want crafters to be necessary. I think its obvious though with Tiggs statement to me and devs actions that this is no longer the case. They want crafting marginalized or gone soon. I wont be surprised at all to hear of NPC vendors eventually selling basic gear.
Final comment:
Player depedancy is a mistake, player support should be looked for.
I made mycharacter a crafter instead of a jedi before I even had a jedi for one reason... the economy.
Eveything you talk about may be true... but on my server all I see is GREED from crafters before the new ones came.
20 - 30 million for a weapon? God knows they cost maybe 5 to make at tops. You hate resource kits, yet venders will sell the necessary uber resources at 150 - 200 cpu, resources they have stockpiled.
I agree that the crafter should be supported by the comminity. However all I have seen in the past is a crafter destorying a community to fill their pocket books.
AFK credit mining and 3rd world country sweat shops that sell credits for real world $ are examples of what greedy crafters with tons of money and multi-million dollar weapons for sale have brought to the community.
This is why I became a crafter in the first place... I love the game, and the way I see it a crafters GREED was not only killing the economy but cutting their legs from under them.
I am not in anyway saying this is you, or trying to flame you with such comments. But the truth about the enconomy as a whole will speak for itself.
Message Edited by Anarchicgorilla on 10-25-2005 08:58 AM
Kinshi
Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:17 am
#6
Your points are cirrect but I must take issues on one point...
The one point I have to disagree on is the CU being the reason.
Most of your points have NOTHING to do with the CU. They are because of the Veteran Reward system, not the CU. SO no fair blaming the CU..vet rewards came before the CU.
The only actual CU-issue was the capping of the weapon stats. (SOE could have scaled back on the quality of resource spawns instead, that way triple-capped weapons would not be so common. As it stands the resources are just too good. Had they done that, very few weapons would be hitting the cap, and WS could still have the thrill of making uber weapons.)
Its another classic SOE case of not fully thinking their design changes through.
The one point I have to disagree on is the CU being the reason.
Most of your points have NOTHING to do with the CU. They are because of the Veteran Reward system, not the CU. SO no fair blaming the CU..vet rewards came before the CU.
The only actual CU-issue was the capping of the weapon stats. (SOE could have scaled back on the quality of resource spawns instead, that way triple-capped weapons would not be so common. As it stands the resources are just too good. Had they done that, very few weapons would be hitting the cap, and WS could still have the thrill of making uber weapons.)
Its another classic SOE case of not fully thinking their design changes through.
Sandsifter
Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:25 am
#7
1. ADK - Huge mistake as this allowed players to get around that pesky item decay issue. Interdependancy means you constantly need to buy more armor and more weapons (too bad that never applied to droids and houses). Now if your rich enough you can just buy 10 ADK and never need a crafter's goods again. This item should have never been introduced, or at the very least one item per account and NOT tradable.
I donot see the adk as a mistake. The mistake is armor and weapons that decay in a week or two. You pup a weapon or actually use your amor and in a week it is gone.
At this decay rate it is necessary to ADK just out of necessity. If I could pup a weapon and it would last a few months of game play. I would very much consider replacing my weapon every 3 or 4 months. But as it goes a puped weapon that you use will not last more then a week before the decay makes it ineffective.
This also could have been balaced ifa crafter could actualy repair their stuff to some sort of worthwhile state. As it is now repairing an item is risky and good results mean you lose around 50-100 points of the condition. With weapons around 900 condition on craft that means 3 - 5 repairs and its about done for.
This could have been fixed by allowing those weapon repair skill tapes to actually work. Heck, I had a suit with +22 weapon repair, +26 armor repair, +24 artisan repair just because I assumed they would work eventually (assumed CU would fix it).
As for armor it too must be adked for another reason... tapes. Tapes cost millions and whats the point of putting tapesin a set of armor that will not last 2 weeks? Armor should be somewhat like a saber... and you should be able to remove your tapes from it. If this was in play you would see alot more demand.
(tied to final comment)
Yeah I'll agree that decay was too fast also. I recall using a rather expensive loot made DX2 years ago and feeling frustrated that it wore out so quickly. Decay should have been slowed down a bit. 4 months though might be a bit long, I'd think somewhere in between like 1-2 months would have kept players and crafters happy. Heck, as a Droid Engineer I would have been happy with any decay lol as droids never need replacing.
2. Kashyyyk - They might as well have said "kiss our as_" to crafters everywhere with this expansion. Loot reward items that were equal if not superior to player made goods. This broke a 2 year promise (5 years if you go all way back to first development) that this would never happen.
Agree. They should have made these weapons craftable.
It seemed like such a simple solution to Kahyyyk, just allow loot rewards to be shematics or enhanced items to make better existing weapons/armor, etc. Why they took crafters completely out of the loop is beyond my understanding. Then SOE acts confused and suprised at public backlash when thousands of crafters quit overnight over that one sheesh.
3. Cap - The caps introduced in CU made pretty much all 12 point smiths with 2 years worth of work useless. Caps were put in place because new development team couldnt find a way to balance them within a level based system (which should have never been put in either). Seeking to make better items was always what kept me going. Getting 1% more better stats was always my goal. Now with caps, any average 850 oq resources and 10 experiment points made a smith equal to me. In essense why bother playing if anyone can come in and be my equal in a few weeks.
Agree. The cap is not needed. Especially now as speed damage and sac all mean something. If you wanted to make a 50 sac pistol at the cost of 100 damage you should be able to. The caps helped nothing, they just made"cookie cutter" weapons.
It took a lot of fun away from us and let us stand out from each other.
Final comment:
Player depedancy is a mistake, player support should be looked for.
Disagree here. Players will never volunteer to participate, they must be led into something. For example, social aspects were forced on players with 10 minute shuttle waits, med centers to heal, neeing apprentice points to make master, and cantinas to heal and get buffs. Players didnt go to these places willing or wait 10 minutes because they chose to. They had no choice, and it let to much socialization (a big goal in beta).
If you give a player a choice in whether to participate in the player economy or avoid with minimal pain, they'll mostly choose to avoid it. In games like WoW, a player will make a second toon and use them to make potions rather than buy them. In SWG, I saw this a lot with droids. A BH many times would use his toon or buy an alt for a brief time to make them a DE 0/0/0/3. With just those skills any DE could make seekers and arakyd droids for their BH to use. They found it easier to do this rather than buy droids from me. I dont fault the player for this, I fault SOE because they never corrected this mistake. Imagine if someone could go 0/0/0/3 weaponsmith and make all the T-21 rifles they wanted and be equal to a 12 point master weaponsmith in quality.
I made mycharacter a crafter instead of a jedi before I even had a jedi for one reason... the economy.
Eveything you talk about may be true... but on my server all I see is GREED from crafters before the new ones came.
20 -30 million for a weapon? God knows they cost maybe 5 to make at tops. You hate resouse kits, yet venders will sell the necessary uber resources at 200 cpu, resources they have stockpiled.
Yeah I agree here. I never understood why a rifle was worth20-30 million. However I suspect the loot components are also partly to blame. A weaponsmith might pay 4 million for krayt tissues so obviously they cant sell that krayt enhanced weapon for any less + resource costs.
I agree that the crafter should be supported by the comminity. However all I have seen in the past is a crafter destorying a community to fill their pocket books.
Some crafters were greedy, but they usually never last long in the game. The ones that were decent folk who priced fair and kept their vendors well stocked are the ones Im referring to. The CU and expansions have really hurt the game for us. All that may be left are a few crafters who like you said are greedy and arent in it for the right reasons.
Lets face it, I didnt choose droid engineer because I wanted to get rich lol. I did it for the love of the profession. And thats why Im leaving.
Icebolt - FS 12 Point Master Droid Engineer
Droid Vendors located seconds from Anchorhead at -99, -4980
Specialing in BH Gear
Thunderbolt - jedi old-school
If Im not online, Im still playing Fallout 2
JaggedGlance
Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:31 am
#8
Ice
I am really sorry that you are leaving the game
I am a DE on Eclipse and your stuff has always been far better than mine, you obviously know your stuff and I wish I had your knowledge of the profession
Iam sorry to see you go
/hatoff
Mrkleen
Sandsifter
Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:32 am
#9
Your points are cirrect but I must take issues on one point...
The one point I have to disagree on is the CU being the reason.
Most of your points have NOTHING to do with the CU. They are because of the Veteran Reward system, not the CU. SO no fair blaming the CU..vet rewards came before the CU.
The only actual CU-issue was the capping of the weapon stats. (SOE could have scaled back on the quality of resource spawns instead, that way triple-capped weapons would not be so common. As it stands the resources are just too good. Had they done that, very few weapons would be hitting the cap, and WS could still have the thrill of making uber weapons.)
Its another classic SOE case of not fully thinking their design changes through.
The one point I have to disagree on is the CU being the reason.
Most of your points have NOTHING to do with the CU. They are because of the Veteran Reward system, not the CU. SO no fair blaming the CU..vet rewards came before the CU.
The only actual CU-issue was the capping of the weapon stats. (SOE could have scaled back on the quality of resource spawns instead, that way triple-capped weapons would not be so common. As it stands the resources are just too good. Had they done that, very few weapons would be hitting the cap, and WS could still have the thrill of making uber weapons.)
Its another classic SOE case of not fully thinking their design changes through.
The CU is inherently at fault. A level based system simply cant work with crafter-based game. With damage mutliplier in place, items really dont matter in PvE. You may use a rifle with 1050 damage while another uses one with 1150 krayt enhanced with perfect OQ 1000 resources and a 12 point smith making it. Regardless of differences and effort put into that rifle, LEVEL determines outcome because of damage multiplier. This folks is exactly why SWG was made into a skill-based game and why the CU made many thousands of crafters quit. A crafter understood that elite well-made items really didnt matter anymore.
And this should upset the combat types also. Those 75 million credit skill tapes are pointless against a mob in PvE. Yes you might kill that lvl 84 krayt 1 second faster, but you still ultimately killed that lvl 84 krayt. And that cl 110 npc on dantooine will still kill you, only you'll last 1 second long with skill tapes. In the end though, CU made all loot made items and skill enhancing items pointless. You cant overcome a damage multiplier.
Sandsifter
Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:36 am
#10
Ice
I am really sorry that you are leaving the game
I am a DE on Eclipse and your stuff has always been far better than mine, you obviously know your stuff and I wish I had your knowledge of the profession
Iam sorry to see you go
/hatoff
Mrkleen
Thank you MrKleen for your nice comments. Give it time and you'll be at the top of your profession. My edge was experience, been messing with droids for years. Send me a email in-game with vendor waypoint and I'll use my vendors to direct business in your direction. I have 3 days left on my account.
Icebolt - FS 12 Point Master Droid Engineer
Droid Vendors located seconds from Anchorhead at -99, -4980
Specialing in BH Gear
Thunderbolt - jedi old-school
If Im not online, Im still playing Fallout 2
Anarchicgorilla
Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:27 am
#11
Final comment:
Player depedancy is a mistake, player support should be looked for.
Disagree here. Players will never volunteer to participate, they must be led into something. For example, social aspects were forced on players with 10 minute shuttle waits, med centers to heal, neeing apprentice points to make master, and cantinas to heal and get buffs. Players didnt go to these places willing or wait 10 minutes because they chose to. They had no choice, and it let to much socialization (a big goal in beta).
If you give a player a choice in whether to participate in the player economy or avoid with minimal pain, they'll mostly choose to avoid it. In games like WoW, a player will make a second toon and use them to make potions rather than buy them. In SWG, I saw this a lot with droids. A BH many times would use his toon or buy an alt for a brief time to make them a DE 0/0/0/3. With just those skills any DE could make seekers and arakyd droids for their BH to use. They found it easier to do this rather than buy droids from me. I dont fault the player for this, I fault SOE because they never corrected this mistake. Imagine if someone could go 0/0/0/3 weaponsmith and make all the T-21 rifles they wanted and be equal to a 12 point master weaponsmith in quality.
I have to disagree here.
Call me cracy but I believe that people are "good natured" and it is the social enviromnet that one is apart of that begins to tug at that good nature.
We live in a world were it appears that any results must be forced. That very midset and attude thus enforces a world that must be forced. Thus you have the cycle effect... we must force people to do stuff.... people believe they must be forced... we must force people to do stuff ... cycle cycle cycle
I believe you will find that people are very social beings even in the game... and even without force people with want to inneract with each other.
Many people seek the "uber" stuff not to kick tail at pve... infact you donot need it for that. The do it for PVP which goes to show that they are seeking some sort of social inneraction. And people are not forced to do PVP by any means.
I could go on with the whole psychological / philosophical / socialological platform... but that whould be a thesis paper.
However key points are here.
Elisar
Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:48 am
#12
I just want a genuine DV97 Guardian Battle droid.
A 7ft hunk of duralloy armored, Blast cannon armed combat badA$$!
then i could die happy.
Sandsifter
Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:05 am
#13
I have to disagree here.
Call me cracy but I believe that people are "good natured" and it is the social enviromnet that one is apart of that begins to tug at that good nature.
We live in a world were it appears that any results must be forced. That very midset and attude thus enforces a world that must be forced. Thus you have the cycle effect... we must force people to do stuff.... people believe they must be forced... we must force people to do stuff ... cycle cycle cycle
I believe you will find that people are very social beings even in the game... and even without force people with want to inneract with each other.
Yes I'll agree that people in general in mmorpg tend to be social however it usually ends up in small clusters like guild chat or a small group of friends. Like Ralph Koster says in his book, players are like Mice and will always eventually find the shortest easiest route to the cheese.
Take a look at medical centers, completely pointless now and therefore completely empty. Docs cant get xp there so you wont find them there. If one wanted just to hang out and chat pre-CU all they had to do was go to Coronet med center or some other major town and you'd always find several players inside.
Take a look at cantinas now. With no battle fatigue and mind wounds there really is very little point in going there. Most players now tend to do a majority of their xp grind afk in AOE groups and therefore arent getting those 10% xp buffs. Most crafters I know dont bother with buffs as they can get capped on many items without a 2% bonus and some like DE doesnt benefit much regardless. Again, because players arent forced to go into a cantina, they generally dont. This also can be seen by the number of active entertainers who have mostly quit. It also didnt stop the afk entertainers as most though since nobody wants buffs anyway. Cantinas went from extremely busy social centers in the game to virtually empty after the CU.
Take a look at Space Ports now. Prior to all the changes and addition of JTL it was a very active place. Players would show off their pets, musicians would break out the instruments and jam. Others shared tales of previous adventures. More would find groups heading to remote locations and get involved. It was one big cluster of players all chatting away. Now you might see one player next to you for 20 seconds, nothing is said and soon you're both gone.
Apprentice Points were a pain but boy did they force you to meet and help other players. There was no other way around training up to master so you had to help others. In my opinion this was a brilliant idea and a big mistake to take away.
Many people seek the "uber" stuff not to kick tail at pve... infact you donot need it for that. The do it for PVP which goes to show that they are seeking some sort of social inneraction. And people are not forced to do PVP by any means.
PvE is the main focus of any mmorpg and PvP while fun to do isnt the primary point. And pre-CU most players worked on getting skill tapes and better elite armor/weapons so they could excell at PvE. That blacksun mob might be too tough for you, however with some improvements to your gear you could overcome that previously unbeatable black sun npc. In a level based game with a damage multiplier, gear isnt going to help you beat something previously unbeatable.
Icebolt - FS 12 Point Master Droid Engineer
Droid Vendors located seconds from Anchorhead at -99, -4980
Specialing in BH Gear
Thunderbolt - jedi old-school
If Im not online, Im still playing Fallout 2
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