Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: A proposal to reduce Jedi/BH animosity
- No Jedi will ever be forced to participate in PvP.
- -- BUT Jedi still have the option of being hunted.
- Jedi have a strong incentive to remain hidden.
- -- BUT Jedi are only penalized with visibility if they use their Force powers indiscriminately.
- Bounty Hunters can still hunt Jedi.
- -- BUT they will only be hunting Jedi who have consented to being hunted.
- Jedi will no longer lose XP.
This should remove most of the animosity Jedi show toward Bounty Hunters, because the only Jedi who will be hunted are those who wish to be, and even those who lose the fight won't lose hard-earned XP.
There are some disadvantages, too, which I am not ashamed to admit. I hope further discussion can eliminate or minimize these:
- Bounty Hunters will have fewer marks available on the terminals.
- This can be mitigated if we make the bounty option attractive to Jedi (being careful not to make them feel forced into taking that option).
- It may be possible to grief Jedi by having a non-Jedi follow them around into combat areas, forcing them to gain visibility.
- Possible solution: players ona Jedi'signore list do not affect visibility.
- Possible solution: Jedi in the wilderness never gain visibility.
- Possible solution: Jedi in the wilderness only gain visibility if X number of non-Jedi are nearby.
- The penalty (whatever it is) must be CAREFULLY balanced.
I'm not sure this idea has much chance, but it seems to me that SOMETHING must be done to reduce the (not-unjustified) Jedi hostility toward bounty hunters.
Powers &8^]
Uhh...Can I be first to say....Shut Up!
People became Jedi knowing full good and well that the Star Wars world is based upon a Bounty Hunter hunting down a Jedi. Get over it.
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EDIT***
Okay, I felt bad after posting that. I apologize. The recent turn of events and people (BH and Jedi) getting upset and flaming each other is starting to rub off. On a lighter note, I don't think that XP loss removal will solve anything. I do think that Jedi alread have such a huge advantage given the Ryatt trail, huge healing/defense powers, cloak, force run, etc....They should rightfully have those abilities, in my opinion.
If you can't be happy with all of that, I'm not really sure what else this game can give you. Jedi are an elite class and they have elite benefits, with that comes elite risks. What more do you want?
Message Edited by Avirda on 07-06-2005 02:33 PM
Powers wrote:
Hello, friends.
It seems that one of the largest sources of conflict between players(not characters) in SWG right now is the Jedi bounty system. Jedi are understandably frustrated at being forced into combat at any timewith the potential to lose signifcant amounts of XP (especially now that gaining visibility is very hard to avoid). Bounty Hunters are also frustrated, that they get insulted, ridiculed, and harassed for taking the missions the developers have provided for them.
I think the first important thing to do is remove XP loss entirely. It sucks, plain and simple, and while the argument "well you should avoid visibility, then" is valid, XP loss sucks so much that it should just go away.
The second important thing to do is to fix the visibility system. Visibility should be accrued when the Jedi uses most Force powers, or a lightsaber, in the following situations:a) while in an NPC or player city, except the conclaves and the Village, b) in the wilderness if non-Jedi are around (unless the non-Jedi are grouped with the Jedi). No Visibility if the Jedi is alone in the wilderness, or if the only other people around are groupmates and/or Jedi.
Visibility would also accrue much faster. If a Jedi needs to take out his lightsaber to put down some moron (cf. Obi-Wan, episode IV), he can do so as long as it's quick. If he keeps his Force-user activities going longer than (say) 30 seconds, visibility starts accruing rapidly. After (say) 2 minutes, his visibility triggers one of two things.
At this point (or perhaps as a predetermined option), the Jedi gets a choice. He canallow a bounty to be placed on his head, or he can accept some sort of penalty. The penalty would be severe -- a 75% reduction in combat effectiveness, or a 75% reduction in XP gain, or something like that. If, on the other hand, he chooses the bounty, he does not attain the penalty until a bounty hunter kills him -- but thepenalty will be even more severe. The bounty gives the Jedi the opportunity to avoid the penalty entirely, but also forces him into PvP with the possibility of a crippling penalty being imposed.
I'm not sure when the penalty goes away after a death, or after the choice to accept the lesser penalty. Hours, probably. Something to make Jedi want to stay hidden, without making them want to delete the character after an accidental lightsaber ignition.
In summary, the advantages of this idea:
- No Jedi will ever be forced to participate in PvP.
- -- BUT Jedi still have the option of being hunted.
- Jedi have a strong incentive to remain hidden.
- -- BUT Jedi are only penalized with visibility if they use their Force powers indiscriminately.
- Bounty Hunters can still hunt Jedi.
- -- BUT they will only be hunting Jedi who have consented to being hunted.
- Jedi will no longer lose XP.
This should remove most of the animosity Jedi show toward Bounty Hunters, because the only Jedi who will be hunted are those who wish to be, and even those who lose the fight won't lose hard-earned XP.
There are some disadvantages, too, which I am not ashamed to admit. I hope further discussion can eliminate or minimize these:
- Bounty Hunters will have fewer marks available on the terminals.
- This can be mitigated if we make the bounty option attractive to Jedi (being careful not to make them feel forced into taking that option).
- It may be possible to grief Jedi by having a non-Jedi follow them around into combat areas, forcing them to gain visibility.
- Possible solution: players ona Jedi'signore list do not affect visibility.
- Possible solution: Jedi in the wilderness never gain visibility.
- Possible solution: Jedi in the wilderness only gain visibility if X number of non-Jedi are nearby.
- The penalty (whatever it is) must be CAREFULLY balanced.
I'm not sure this idea has much chance, but it seems to me that SOMETHING must be done to reduce the (not-unjustified) Jedi hostility toward bounty hunters.
Powers &8^]
/agree with everything
great job
Dheretic wrote:
I think the first important thing to do is remove XP loss entirely. It sucks, plain and simple, and while the argument "well you should avoid visibility, then" is valid, XP loss sucks so much that it should just go away.
LOL, sorry, but I stopped reading after this. Let me guess, you a new Padawan?
- Eliminate XP loss, and replace it with some other penalty.
- Make Jedi bounties optional.
- Revamp the visibility system.
OK, first, let me explain that one of my characters is a bounty hunter. But she's only at Investigation II and I'm not sure whether she'll ever hunt Jedi. These are just my observations and suggestions to resolve what I see as one of the most signficant problems in the SWG community.
Now, let me explain my changes.
1. Eliminate XP loss.
XP loss sucks. As far as I know, all current-gen MMORPGs have rejected it as a death penalty. SWG should too. I realize that the counterargument ("Jedi should avoid gaining visibility if they don't want to lose XP") is valid, especially with my third change, but it doesn't change the fact that XP loss sucks. Replace it with just about anything and we're better off. The main cause of the Jedi animosity toward bounty hunters seems to be that the Jedi can lose his hard-earned XP.
So what do we replace it with? I'm not sure. XP debt is one possibility. Reduced XP gain rate is another. Reduced combat effectivess, perhaps? Whatever it is, it should be very significant -- somewhere between 50% and 90% reduction.
This still causes Jedi to want to avoid visibility, but keeps them from ever losing that XP they work so hard for.
2. Make Jedi bounties optional.
That's right. Forcing Jedi into PvP if they gained visibility seemed like a good idea, but it's not. That much is obvious now. The developers changed the game so that players can participate in the GCW without having to engage in PvP; they should do the same for Jedi.
But of course, we want to provide an incentive to Jedi to allow themselves to be hunted, or Bounty Hunters will be out of a job. How do we do this? By imposing the penalty discussed above (XP debt, combat penalties, or whatever) on the Jedi progressively, as they gain visibility (this goes hand-in-hand with the visibility changes below). Ifa Jediwants a chance to avoid the penalty, he can choose to allow a bounty on his head. He'll have no penalty until a bounty hunter kills him. But if the BH does kill him, his penalty will be even more severe than it would have been otherwise. This requires careful balancing to make sure that all Jedi do not choose one option or the other. =)
3. Revamp the visibility system.
Under my proposed revamp, Jedi will gain visibility for using most Force powers, or using a lightsaber. If the Jedi is alone in the wilderness, he will not gain visibility. If the Jedi is in the wilderness, and the only nearby people are other Jedi, or grouped with the Jedi, he will not gain visibility. If the Jedi is in the Villiage on Dathomir, he will not gain visibility. Otherwise (that is, if the Jedi is in an NPC or player city, or if there are non-Jedi, non-grouped characters nearby), he will.
The Jedi would get (say) 30 seconds of freebie time. He can make like Obi-Wan in Episode IV, pull out his lightsaber, cut down some schmo who's causing trouble, and put it away without gaining visibility. But if he decides to start a full-on battle with another Jedi, or with an NPC, or whatever, he'll start to gain visibility. After a certain point (say, two minutes), he has to make a choice (or perhaps he can make this choice as a game option ahead of time): he can accept a painful penalty but keep himself free of any bounties, or he can go on the terminals and risk an even worse penalty in exchange for the possibility of avoiding all penalties (or perhaps halving them -- whatever's balanced).
In summary, I see the advantages of this system as follows:
- Jedi who gain visibility are no longer forced into PvP.
- BUT they can still choose to get involved in PvP if they wish.
- Jedi will no longer gain visibility for grouping, and other Jedi will not cause them to gain visibility.
- Jedi will no longer lose hard-earned XP.
- Bounty Hunters can be assured they are only hunting Jedi who wish to be hunted.
- Bounty Hunters will be less hated because they will no longer cause XP loss.
Of course, there are disadvantages too. I would hope that these could be discussed and minimized or eliminated from my idea:
- It may be possible to grief a Jedi by having a character follow him around into combat areas, thus causing the Jedi to gain visibility.
- Possible solution: A threshold number of people is required to cause visibility gain.
- Possible solution: Players on the Jedi's ignore list will not cause visibility gain.
- Bounty Hunters will have fewer options available when they wish to take a Jedi mission.
- It is important that the visibility penalties be balanced carefully so that some Jedi will wish to take a chance on the terminals.
- This may be ameliorated if smuggler bountiescan be worked into this same system.
This is my proposal. I am not sure how much chance there is of it ever being implemented, but I can't see how we can go on the way we are. This animosity is killing the community of the game, and it needs to be stopped. I think this idea is the best way to do it. Please post your feedback.
Powers &8^]
Message Edited by Powers on 07-06-2005 03:51 PM
Avirda wrote:
People became Jedi knowing full good and well that the Star Wars world is based upon a Bounty Hunter hunting down a Jedi. Get over it.
Avirda wrote:
If you can't be happy with all of that, I'm not really sure what else this game can give you. Jedi are an elite class and they have elite benefits, with that comes elite risks. What more do you want?
I'm not looking for any of that. I don't play any Force-users. What I'm looking for is a way to penalize Jedi for gaining visibility WITHOUT causing them to hate the players of bounty hunters for making them lose XP.
Why shouldn't someone be able to play a non-combatant Jedi? A meditative Jedi who uses his abilities only for defense? Why should those Jedi be forced into PvP?
I recognize Jedi presence needs to be curtailed. I hate seeing them everywhere, as we do now. But I also hate seeing them get angry at the PLAYERS of bounty hunters, who are only doing what the game places in front of them to do. By making PvP consensual, the hate is lessened.