Bounty Hunter Archive

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Kesmo wrote:

First my story: I got my first pub 20 mission and what do you know Kashyyyk. I go to the Ryatt trails even though I have no name on my Jedi (I can't seem to figure it out, seeker at seek, seeker at track, and still no name). I search about 3 instances and then I crash. Frustrated I wait till morning and try again. Lo and behold I find my Jedi is still on line (or on again) and after searching another two instances I find her. She is afk in the no-LOS area by the bridge. I move around a lot trying to target her, just in case, but to no avail (bomb droid didn't work either).

I submit a CSR ticket asking if it is an exploit, and hoping to get a response. As I stand there, I see 8 other Jedi (all Reb, I am imp if that mattters). As they grind away on wookies, I decide to do the same. Not just to be annoying, but to work on FS xp, and since they are using their lowest fc sabers, I am outdamaging them and getting the xp, i.e. kill stealing. When they point out their frustration I offer to group with them and they are full. So I keep it up until I get a CSR response (which has yet to come). I further thought, maybe this is a good idea. I made it clear to the other Jedi I would be gone by now if the AFK -anti-LOS Jedi had fought me. I encouraged them to report her as well. However they eventually left in frustration (the afk ones died).

Now, I know many think this is a game and ethics shouldn't matter. For those who believe that, I repsectfully hear your opinion and reject it. I think games should have ethics when interacting with others. If you think there is a place for ethics, please answer the following questions for me:

Questions:

1) Is the anti-LOS spots (afk or otherwise) been declared an exploit yet?

2) Was the kill stealing wrong / unethical/ or completly Jerk like, and therefore I shouldn't do it anymore?

3) If you think it is okay to kill steal (ethically, I know there is no TOS against it), then what do you thin about encouraging Jedi to not exploit and report exploiters (assuming it is an exploit) by taking away some of their xp while you wait on afk anti-los Jedi?

Thanks for your input, I seriusly want to know and I will post this on both the BH and Jedi forums to try to counteract a bit of selection bias. For those who don't know me (most of you) do know that this is not a rant, but a serious question for me.

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1. they have made no saying as of yet. some csrs (ChrisG is bad about it) consider it an exploit and will remove the jedi/send waves of lvl 500 sentinels after them. some dont. no one knows so im calling no foul till they do.
2. kill-stealing violates the TOS, as it is considered griefing and harrassment. u can get reprimanded/banned for repeat offenses. and yes its wrong ethically since they "cant" go anywhere else and u can (im not a full template but i hunt on dant now thanks to publish 20).
3. you are not a csr. act like u determine what i right and what is wrong might get ur account banned, since u grief them in the name of justice. i say stay away from kash all together. be patient and try to find me

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Kesmo wrote:

First my story: I got my first pub 20 mission and what do you know Kashyyyk. I go to the Ryatt trails even though I have no name on my Jedi (I can't seem to figure it out, seeker at seek, seeker at track, and still no name). I search about 3 instances and then I crash. Frustrated I wait till morning and try again. Lo and behold I find my Jedi is still on line (or on again) and after searching another two instances I find her. She is afk in the no-LOS area by the bridge. I move around a lot trying to target her, just in case, but to no avail (bomb droid didn't work either).

I submit a CSR ticket asking if it is an exploit, and hoping to get a response. As I stand there, I see 8 other Jedi (all Reb, I am imp if that mattters). As they grind away on wookies, I decide to do the same. Not just to be annoying, but to work on FS xp, and since they are using their lowest fc sabers, I am outdamaging them and getting the xp, i.e. kill stealing.When they pointout their frustration I offer to group with them and they are full. So I keep it up until I get a CSR response (whichhas yet to come). I further thought, maybe this is a good idea. I made it clear to the other Jedi I would be gone by now if the AFK -anti-LOS Jedi had fought me. I encouraged them to report her as well. However they eventually left in frustration (the afk ones died).

Now, I know many think thisis a game and ethics shouldn't matter. For those who believe that, I repsectfully hear your opinion and reject it. I think gamesshould have ethics when interacting with others. If you think there is a place for ethics, please answer the following questions for me:

Questions:

1) Is the anti-LOS spots (afk or otherwise) been declared an exploit yet?

Yes - using "pathing" to grind without a chance to die is exploting, it's in the Holocron.

2)Was the kill stealing wrong / unethical/ or completly Jerk like, and therefore I shouldn't do it anymore?

SOE does not recogonize "kill stealing" in SWG. If you can't outdamage someone, then perhaps you shouldn't try. However, in a MMO, most people respect other people to the point of not "kill stealing".

Doing it will only cause problems and in IMHO people who do this because they feel "wronged" by someone else is simply a "jerk"... As the one developer once said, "you can design a game to do alot of things, however, there is nothing you can do to stop someone from being a jerk in the game...."

With that said, EQ2 has a perfect system where once you attack something, your group is locked in combat with it. No one else can attack it. unless you all die or someone in the party panics and screams for "help". This is the only way to do it right.

3) If you think it is okay to kill steal (ethically, I know there is no TOS against it), then what do you thin about encouraging Jedi to not exploit and report exploiters (assuming it is an exploit) by taking away some of their xp while you wait on afk anti-los Jedi?

Your not the SOE police. You sent in the report, you would be best to move along. The CSR's are the only ones that can make that call. Staying there interfering with other players is a breach of the TOS.

Thanks for your input, I seriusly want to know and I will post this on both the BH and Jedi forums to try to counteract a bit of selection bias. For those who don't know me (most of you) do know that this is not a rant, but a serious question for me.

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1. they have made no saying as of yet. some csrs (ChrisG is bad about it) consider it an exploit and will remove the jedi/send waves of lvl 500 sentinels after them. some dont. no one knows so im calling no foul till they do.
2. kill-stealing violates the TOS, as it is considered griefing and harrassment. u can get reprimanded/banned for repeat offenses. and yes its wrong ethically since they "cant" go anywhere else and u can (im not a full template but i hunt on dant now thanks to publish 20).
3. you are not a csr. act like u determine what i right and what is wrong might get ur account banned, since u grief them in the name of justice. i say stay away from kash all together. be patient and try to find me

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Gubment_Geek wrote:

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1. they have made no saying as of yet. some csrs (ChrisG is bad about it) consider it an exploit and will remove the jedi/send waves of lvl 500 sentinels after them. some dont. no one knows so im calling no foul till they do.
2. kill-stealing violates the TOS, as it is considered griefing and harrassment. u can get reprimanded/banned for repeat offenses. and yes its wrong ethically since they "cant" go anywhere else and u can (im not a full template but i hunt on dant now thanks to publish 20).
3. you are not a csr. act like u determine what i right and what is wrong might get ur account banned, since u grief them in the name of justice. i say stay away from kash all together. be patient and try to find me

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What do you mean "can't go anywhere else". There is a whole slew of planets full of creatures to kill out there. What you mean is they don't "want" to go anywhere else. He has just as much right to those MOBs as anybody. Is it nice? no. But neither is the crap he has to put up with on the whole LOS issue.

Say what you want, but we all know deep down that it is not working the way it is supposed to, and using it that way is wrong. If you can put your integrity aside and use it, fine, but don't tell him he is doing something wrong. Like I said, it's not nice but I don't see anybody's name on those wookies, they're fair game.

Just because Kashyyk seems like the easiest place for a jedi to grind does not mean he cannot grind someplace else. There are lots of jedi who don't grind there for their own reasons. Kudos to them. I really just wish they would turn off all exp on kashyyyk and keep it the quest/adventure planet they say it is. That would fix most of the problems everybody is screaming about without taking away a jedi's place to hide and everybody's god given right to a little content.

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Thats the point. The only problem with this area is the LOS issue.

Not the "grinding" on feral wookies. Not being AFK.

it's just the LOS issue. Where the person runs into it to avoid dying because of the number of wookies or in the case of the Jedi, a MBH hunting them.

that's it.

As long as they have the macro system in game, with recursive macros all the rage, people have been "afk" grinding their toons from day 1. Even now I can go to Mos Entha on my server, and see a MBH "afk" grinding on the two rebels outside the starport.

All the devs have to do is fix the LOS issue. That's it.

Btw - you do know there are other area's that have LOS, not just on wookie world.

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Kesmo wrote:

Questions:

1) Is the anti-LOS spots (afk or otherwise) been declared an exploit yet? it should be fixed, regardless of its official status...sloppy coding, and yeah, it's wrong to take advantage of it.

2)Was the kill stealing wrong / unethical/ or completly Jerk like, and therefore I shouldn't do it anymore? kill stealing has more to do with your intent then what you kill....seems like you were trying to grind, nothing wrong with that....officially the only time kill stealing is punishable is if you follow someone around to kill their mission spawns.

3) If you think it is okay to kill steal (ethically, I know there is no TOS against it), then what do you thin about encouraging Jedi to not exploit and report exploiters (assuming it is an exploit) by taking away some of their xp while you wait on afk anti-los Jedi? if your intent is to punish other players because one player is abusing poor coding, your just as bad as the individual who motivated you to do so.

Thanks for your input, I seriusly want to know and I will post this on both the BH and Jedi forums to try to counteract a bit of selection bias. For those who don't know me (most of you) do know that this is not a rant, but a serious question for me. good luck, just remember, it's a game, try and spend more time having fun than getting even. you can't control the actions of anyone but yourself, recognizing that, how much fun you have is entirely up to you.

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Gubment_Geek wrote:

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1. they have made no saying as of yet. some csrs (ChrisG is bad about it) consider it an exploit and will remove the jedi/send waves of lvl 500 sentinels after them. some dont. no one knows so im calling no foul till they do.
2. kill-stealing violates the TOS, as it is considered griefing and harrassment. u can get reprimanded/banned for repeat offenses. and yes its wrong ethically since they "cant" go anywhere else and u can (im not a full template but i hunt on dant now thanks to publish 20).
3. you are not a csr. act like u determine what i right and what is wrong might get ur account banned, since u grief them in the name of justice. i say stay away from kash all together. be patient and try to find me

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What do you mean "can't go anywhere else". There is a whole slew of planets full of creatures to kill out there. What you mean is they don't "want" to go anywhere else. He has just as much right to those MOBs as anybody. Is it nice? no. But neither is the crap he has to put up with on the whole LOS issue.

Say what you want, but we all know deep down that it is not working the way it is supposed to, and using it that way is wrong. If you can put your integrity aside and use it, fine, but don't tell him he is doing something wrong. Like I said, it's not nice but I don't see anybody's name on those wookies, they're fair game.

Just because Kashyyk seems like the easiest place for a jedi to grind does not mean he cannot grind someplace else. There are lots of jedi who don't grind there for their own reasons. Kudos to them. I really just wish they would turn off all exp on kashyyyk and keep it the quest/adventure planet they say it is. That would fix most of the problems everybody is screaming about without taking away a jedi's place to hide and everybody's god given right to a little content.

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pre-publish 20 any jedi who was not a full template was gunned down time and time again, over and over again until he got on kash. the griefers had a field day with u. u will say "so stay off teh terms noob!!!11" to which they say "it takes me 5 minutes to kill something solo that i can kill in a group in two seconds. ill take the risk." the fact that a few ppl ganked padawans continuously who grinded outside of the ryyat trail forced them to hide. now its not so much u could if u were careful grind outside now (i know i do) but it is still the safest place do to the lack of a name and LOS bugs (no matter what it says if the devs wont tell us anything i refuse to accept any player's views as law about it)

and u can whine, complain, plead, sign, petition all u want, if he devs dont want to change something, they wont (we are now three months into teh combat upgrade and ROTW and this hasnt been fixed? "worign as intended")

just break down and hunt eh full template jedi who WANT TO BE HUNTED. they wont run in most cases and they will be glad to show a fair fight. after all what do they have to lose?

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Satdaten wrote:

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Gubment_Geek wrote:

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1. they have made no saying as of yet. some csrs (ChrisG is bad about it) consider it an exploit and will remove the jedi/send waves of lvl 500 sentinels after them. some dont. no one knows so im calling no foul till they do.
2. kill-stealing violates the TOS, as it is considered griefing and harrassment. u can get reprimanded/banned for repeat offenses. and yes its wrong ethically since they "cant" go anywhere else and u can (im not a full template but i hunt on dant now thanks to publish 20).
3. you are not a csr. act like u determine what i right and what is wrong might get ur account banned, since u grief them in the name of justice. i say stay away from kash all together. be patient and try to find me

---

What do you mean "can't go anywhere else". There is a whole slew of planets full of creatures to kill out there. What you mean is they don't "want" to go anywhere else. He has just as much right to those MOBs as anybody. Is it nice? no. But neither is the crap he has to put up with on the whole LOS issue.

Say what you want, but we all know deep down that it is not working the way it is supposed to, and using it that way is wrong. If you can put your integrity aside and use it, fine, but don't tell him he is doing something wrong. Like I said, it's not nice but I don't see anybody's name on those wookies, they're fair game.

Just because Kashyyk seems like the easiest place for a jedi to grind does not mean he cannot grind someplace else. There are lots of jedi who don't grind there for their own reasons. Kudos to them. I really just wish they would turn off all exp on kashyyyk and keep it the quest/adventure planet they say it is. That would fix most of the problems everybody is screaming about without taking away a jedi's place to hide and everybody's god given right to a little content.

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pre-publish 20 any jedi who was not a full template was gunned down time and time again, over and over again until he got on kash. the griefers had a field day with u. u will say "so stay off teh terms noob!!!11" to which they say "it takes me 5 minutes to kill something solo that i can kill in a group in two seconds. ill take the risk." the fact that a few ppl ganked padawans continuously who grinded outside of the ryyat trail forced them to hide. now its not so much u could if u were careful grind outside now (i know i do) but it is still the safest place do to the lack of a name and LOS bugs (no matter what it says if the devs wont tell us anything i refuse to accept any player's views as law about it)

and u can whine, complain, plead, sign, petition all u want, if he devs dont want to change something, they wont (we are now three months into teh combat upgrade and ROTW and this hasnt been fixed? "worign as intended")

just break down and hunt eh full template jedi who WANT TO BE HUNTED. they wont run in most cases and they will be glad to show a fair fight. after all what do they have to lose?

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First off, don't pigeon hole me in with that stupid leet crap 11!! noob pwn. the day I start talking like that is the day I quit this game. You can go back and read all my posts and nowhere will you find me telling people "me pwnd joo!!" dar dar....

Now to the issue at hand. Summed up: once again Just because it is the safest place to grind because of a error in code doesn't make it ok to use! It is wrong, it is an exploit and we all know it. Rationalize it however you want to, you still know it is wrong.

I'm tired of people justifying poor behavior by saying it's easier and the dev's haven't told me not to do it. I'm not b|tching whining or complaining about this, all I am doing is asking for people to step back and have an integrity check. Do the right thing even if its just a stupid game, but that's too much to ask I guess.

Jedi/Padawan get vis, jedi/padawan get hunted. Jedi isn't and wasn't supposed to be easy. It was supposed to be special. Now its just a friggin race to finish a template. Woohoo! thats fun. Play how you want to I guess, but don't try and tell me its ok because it's easy, that doesn't work in game or in real life.

Finally, you say to hunt a full template who WANTS TO BE HUNTED! I say all jedi want to be hunted or they would not have made the choice to be jedi. It is inherent to the profession and if you don't want that, don't be a jedi.

And lastly, there are a lot of non full template jedi who weren't getting "gunned down every five minutes" because they were good at what they were doing whether it was fightingor running. Don't belittle their accomplishments to bolster a weak argument. My hats off to them as I find they are fun people usually. Don't disconnect your morals when you log in. Do the right thing

Message Edited by Gubment_Geek on 07-20-2005 03:20 PM

As a Jedi:

1) Is cowardly and pathetic, I hope it's an exploit

2) I think it good that you took away their free mechanism for grinding, and Ithink its hilarious. Good job. Thats not really kill stealing in my book, kill stealing to me is coming up to me in the wild and whacking on one of my lairs.

3) Jedi should not exploit if they want to feel accomplishment and truelly learn their profession. I don't know if thats an exploit or crappy game mechaninc, it's so hard to tell with SOE.

Ethics and morality matter everywhere, the people in game that don't have it probably don't in real life. I wouldn't lend them $.25.No one truelly roleplays, so I think that's a cop out if anyone says so.