Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: Bounty Hunter Prestige System
You're talking about Atton, and if you played the game as a female you learn that the reason he was so good at killing Jedi was that he was a force wielder himself. He becomes a Jedi.
Grendiel wrote:
Let me make a distinction between hunting and fighting. For the most part, only BH's and Sith hunted the Jedi... but there were many others who could fight Jedi effectively.. Off the top of my head, in KotOR II alone there were several... There was a scoundrel who was supposedly very good at killing Jedi, then there was a droid that had special techniques for dealing with Jedi.. A number of Mandalorian warriors have had success in killing Jedi as well...
Message Edited by Grendiel on 06-04-2005 02:52 PM
Caelrie wrote:
I don't think bounty hunters have the kind of penalties required to warrant the kind of power you want to add to the profession.
So I'd vote no on this. I ESPECIALLY vote no on any BH abilities that affect the force pool or buffs of a Jedi. You're not force wielders. You lack the understanding and ability with the force to be able to affect it at all.
Bounty Hunters don't have penalties now, and I don't think they should, because they can't compete with upper end Jedi. The idea of Bounty Hunters being penalized now when they are largely unable to compete with high end Jedi is rediculous.
However, under the prestige system, they WOULD have penalties as far as prestige loss goes for failing to take out a mark. If the prestige cost for the rewards is high enough, prestige loss for failure would indeed be a penalty.
Think of all the problems this system would solve though.
- No more high end Bounty Hunters ganking low level Padawans because once a Bounty Hunter has achieved a certain level of prestige, they would no longer be able to take the lowbie missions.
- Giving Bounty Hunters a way to compete with Jedi Knights at the high end means the devs can do their BH vs. Jedi 1 vs. 1 that they, and I think nearly all of us, want. No more 5 on 1 gank squads.
- Jedi don't need to be nerfed because they are so much more powerful than other professions. They will FINALLY have a true foil. Bounty Hunters will be raised up, Jedi not brought down.
Do I think Bounty Hunters should be just as powerful as Jedi? Absolutely NOT.
But I do think that the tools should be available for exceptional players to give the Jedi a good challenge.
Caelrie wrote:
Enix_Dayspring wrote:
However, under the prestige system, they WOULD have penalties as far as prestige loss goes for failing to take out a mark. If the prestige cost for the rewards is high enough, prestige loss for failure would indeed be a penalty.
It's not even close to enough. Jedi have 100 times the penalties of a normal profession for 1.5x the power. If you want 1.5x the power too, Add 1000% more penalties.
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I'm not going to argue with anyone about Jedi skill loss. Personally I think the complaining is rediculous. EVERYONE knew when they became a Jedi there would be things put in our way so it would be a challenge. Heck, it's actually a whole lot better now with just xp loss. You used to have to start your character over completely with Perma Death. So what's all the crying about xp loss about?
Jedi XP loss is a mechanism to slow Jedi down in a (failed) attempt to keep them somewhat rare. Whining about Bounty Hunters not being penalized is nothing but crying for revenge. They have no advantage that any other combat class doesn't have. The developers aren't trying to keep BHs rare.
Requesting a BH penalty is nothing but whining because you were killed and had a set back. WHICH YOU ARE MEANT TO HAVE BY DESIGN.
Im not a bounty hunter, I'm about a half templated Jedi. But I will never cry about taking xp loss. It means a better player than me bested me. It means I have to learn to get better.
I feel sorry for the people who don't want to get better but just want to take revenge out on other players just playing the game the way it's designed.
I'm not going to argue with anyone about Jedi skill loss. Personally I think the complaining is rediculous. EVERYONE knew when they became a Jedi there would be things put in our way so it would be a challenge. Heck, it's actually a whole lot better now with just xp loss. You used to have to start your character over completely with Perma Death. So what's all the crying about xp loss about?
Jedi XP loss is a mechanism to slow Jedi down in a (failed) attempt to keep them somewhat rare. Whining about Bounty Hunters not being penalized is nothing but crying for revenge. They have no advantage that any other combat class doesn't have. The developers aren't trying to keep BHs rare.
Requesting a BH penalty is nothing but whining because you were killed and had a set back. WHICH YOU ARE MEANT TO HAVE BY DESIGN.
None of that little rant has anything at all to do with what I wrote.
You want equal power to a Jedi. You state so clearly. You must be willing to pay with equal penalties. They don't have to be the same penalties, but they have to be equal.
Message Edited by Caelrie on 06-06-200505:24 PM
Message Edited by Caelrie on 06-06-2005 05:25 PM
Caelrie wrote:
I'm not going to argue with anyone about Jedi skill loss. Personally I think the complaining is rediculous. EVERYONE knew when they became a Jedi there would be things put in our way so it would be a challenge. Heck, it's actually a whole lot better now with just xp loss. You used to have to start your character over completely with Perma Death. So what's all the crying about xp loss about?
Jedi XP loss is a mechanism to slow Jedi down in a (failed) attempt to keep them somewhat rare. Whining about Bounty Hunters not being penalized is nothing but crying for revenge. They have no advantage that any other combat class doesn't have. The developers aren't trying to keep BHs rare.
Requesting a BH penalty is nothing but whining because you were killed and had a set back. WHICH YOU ARE MEANT TO HAVE BY DESIGN.
None of that little rant has anything at all to do with what I wrote.
You want equal power to a Jedi. You state so clearly. You must be willing to pay with equal penalties. They don't have to be the same penalties, but they have to be equal.
Message Edited by Caelrie on 06-06-200505:24 PM
Message Edited by Caelrie on 06-06-2005 05:25 PM
Sure it does.
You want Bounty Hunters to have a penaltybecause you have one. You suffer, so you want them to suffer.
Under the prestige system, the cost of failure is loss of prestige and being held back from attaining greater power. Is that not exactly what XP loss is to a Jedi? Loss of XP that holds them back from greater power?
It's essentially the same thing when you think about it. But of course it doesn't have the bite of revenge and causing them to suffer that some people seem to want.
Message Edited by Enix_Dayspring on 06-06-2005 07:31 PM
i still have a few of your old made weapons, they turned out alright thru the CU.
Enix_Dayspring wrote:
Requesting a BH penalty is nothing but whining because you were killed and had a set back. WHICH YOU ARE MEANT TO HAVE BY DESIGN.
I think the issue here is that this prestige system would allow Bounty Hunters to possess equal power to a Jedi without any of the hardship of obtaining such power, nor any drawbacks of retaining it. Risk Vs Reward must be equal for both Jedi and Bounty Hunters should they ever become statistically equal.
I however like the idea. Reduce the loss of Jedi xp equal to the proportion of prestige loss. Introduce a cap for negative Jedi experience points. Make the bonuses and path to them equal. Then we have a good system 1v1 for Jedi vs BH end game. Alternativly, you can flame and complain that I want an easier time with Jedi, and instead nerf your idea.
Enix_Dayspring wrote:
Im not a bounty hunter, I'm about a half templated Jedi.
Would I be wrong in assumingyou're either a respec padawan, or a pre-CU solo grinder?I think many people would so that's not the best statement for enhancing your credibility...
Enix_Dayspring wrote:
I feel sorry for the people who don't want to get better but just want to take revenge out on other players just playing the game the way it's designed.
You suggest a method of enhancing bounty hunters, a profession one of your toons has,so that they can hurt more Jedi, which is silly if you understand the pain of Jedi yourself,but expect everyone else to get used to the current system and improve their skills...what happened to make you need revenge on Jedi?
Enix_Dayspring wrote:
EVERYONE knew when they became a Jedi there would be things put in our way so it would be a challenge.
When I started Jedi, I wanted to roleplay. I wanted to hide out with friends in the wild. Jedi was by design, the ultimate roleplaying class. That's what attracted me to it!Perma death wasnot a problem. What for if, as a roleplayer, you rarely saw combat?
With theintroduction of forced pvp (that would be perma-overt and BH vs Jedi) and xp/skill loss, roleplaying, immersion and continuity died. Nobody wanted to be forced into PvP or forced to participate in the GCW.But the result was, Jedi became full of"l33tz", and we are all forced to take up the FOTM. Kill every nearby threat to protect the precious experience points.
Attempting to continue roleplaying myself. Hiding on Lok or Dantooine, I am using force powers to help friends, thus gaining visability. "Oh, if you don't want vis, dont use the force!" I hear you cry! Well, whats the point of roleplaying a Jedi if you cant use the cool animations and stuff. Continuing,moments later an immature and dishonourablebounty hunter appears. Starts some harrassment, general anti-social behaviour. Totally ruining my immersion and the atmosphere. However, I love to see the bounty hunter that joins in, merges into the storyline, even if it is a feeble attempt and they try to take a pop at me 
, but rarely happens.
What is the relevence? How does this relate to your idea?
Well, the wholejedi hunting concept is based around this idea of "population control" and "slowing progress"; basically griefing other playersin the hope that they quit or just for the sake of punishing them.
You want to have fun fighting Jedi, ask for a /duel! You need money? Go play in space or do npc missions! If you want the power tostand toe to toe witha Jedi Knight,become a Jedi Knight yourself!
I have asked many times whyJedi are hunted. Many respond with: "For the greater good of the game! To reduce the population! Because Jedi are lame and need to die! Order 66!". For what purpose, what effect on the game? "Improve roleplaying, immersion and continuity! Jedi should be in hiding, not duelling in starports and ganking in the GCW!". Well, I agree 100%, but every attempt at roleplaying will usually conclude with some interuption by a team of bounty hunters.
Enix_Dayspring wrote:
But if you want to be the Best of the Best, a Jedi Knight slayer, you will need more...
ForceShot (or something like that) - Drains small amount of force from your opponent. Should be equivillant of Jedi's drain force skill. -7 million prestige
Concentration Shot - Simlar to Jedi "Breach Force" ability, gives a chance to remove the Jedi's buffs such as Aura or Valor by breaking their concentration. -7 million prestige
Now it seems to me, this was inspired by your desire for greaterprowess in jedihunting.Allow me to inform you as a long time bounty hunter prior to achieving Jedi, wealready possess great powers ofour own! First strike, subterfuge, surprise, cunning, tactics to name a few. If you choose not to use them, tough! If you want to kill a knight in a straight 1v1 fight through sheer brute force and an FOTM, become one yourself!
To conclude, the idea is nice. Would be best implemented as additional content for all professions. It is a powerful concept. However integrating it into a system that is already flawed at the most fundamental levels, such as Jedi vs BH, it will only aggrivate more issues. We need something to improve roleplaying and immersion. Actually improve the game! Not promote griefing and 1337ism!
The logic of introducing "roleplaying class" that could only be obtained by power gamers and possessed the ability to even be allowed toparticipate inthe GCW whileannihlating every other class still illudes me.
Adrir wrote:
Enix_Dayspring wrote:
Requesting a BH penalty is nothing but whining because you were killed and had a set back. WHICH YOU ARE MEANT TO HAVE BY DESIGN.
I think the issue here is that this prestige system would allow Bounty Hunters to possess equal power to a Jedi without any of the hardship of obtaining such power, nor any drawbacks of retaining it. Risk Vs Reward must be equal for both Jedi and Bounty Hunters should they ever become statistically equal.
I however like the idea. Reduce the loss of Jedi xp equal to the proportion of prestige loss. Introduce a cap for negative Jedi experience points. Make the bonuses and path to them equal. Then we have a good system 1v1 for Jedi vs BH end game. Alternativly, you can flame and complain that I want an easier time with Jedi, and instead nerf your idea.
There is merit in what you're saying. The problem is, Bounty Hunters are not Jedi. Jedi are meant to be rare, Bounty Hunters are not. Jedi do not experience xp loss because the developers are sadistic and want to drive their players crazy, they get skill loss because there really aren't supposed to be Jedi in this time period, but since they're in the game and are considered the end game, XP loss is there as a stumbling block on the road to ultimate power.
Bounty Hunters under the Prestige System do not have ultimate power. If done correctly, their tools and skills will be solely for the purpose of being a foil to Jedi having ultimate power (which I want them to have). Jedi will still be all powerful against MOBs and NPCs, Bounty Hunters will have no advantage any normal profession doesn't have. The only power a Bounty Hunter would have (and only a highly skilled, succesful one at that who has climbed the prestige ladder which should be nearly as challenging as grinding to knight) would be VS. a Jedi.
Enix_Dayspring wrote:
Im not a bounty hunter, I'm about a half templated Jedi.
Would I be wrong in assumingyou're either a respec padawan, or a pre-CU solo grinder?I think many people would so that's not the best statement for enhancing your credibility...
No, neither one. I played solely a weaponsmith for a little over a year, got Jedi about 6 or 7 months ago, but didn't do anything with it till about a month ago when I started grinding. I took advantage of double XP, but did not do the respec trick for the same reason I'm making suggestions for bounty hunters when Im a Jedi. I want the game to be as fun as possible and having all powerful characters with no foil or cheating at the game is not fun.
I've been killed by bounty hunters several times and yeah, xp loss sucks. But I knew it was there when I started, so its just part of the game I have to accept.
Enix_Dayspring wrote:
I feel sorry for the people who don't want to get better but just want to take revenge out on other players just playing the game the way it's designed.
You suggest a method of enhancing bounty hunters, a profession one of your toons has,so that they can hurt more Jedi, which is silly if you understand the pain of Jedi yourself,but expect everyone else to get used to the current system and improve their skills...what happened to make you need revenge on Jedi?
Who said I was a Bounty Hunter? Not me. I've never taken a bounty in my life, PC or NPC. The thing is that many of the Jedi on this board are so afraid of the concept of giving BHs more power, that they don't see the good things. No more high level Bounty Hunters ganking low level Padawans. No more 5 vs 1 fights.
I don't want to be a God character when Im a knight, but I don't want to get ganked by 5 rifleman either.
Enix_Dayspring wrote:
EVERYONE knew when they became a Jedi there would be things put in our way so it would be a challenge.
When I started Jedi, I wanted to roleplay. I wanted to hide out with friends in the wild. Jedi was by design, the ultimate roleplaying class. That's what attracted me to it!Perma death wasnot a problem. What for if, as a roleplayer, you rarely saw combat?
With theintroduction of forced pvp (that would be perma-overt and BH vs Jedi) and xp/skill loss, roleplaying, immersion and continuity died. Nobody wanted to be forced into PvP or forced to participate in the GCW.But the result was, Jedi became full of"l33tz", and we are all forced to take up the FOTM. Kill every nearby threat to protect the precious experience points.
Attempting to continue roleplaying myself. Hiding on Lok or Dantooine, I am using force powers to help friends, thus gaining visability. "Oh, if you don't want vis, dont use the force!" I hear you cry! Well, whats the point of roleplaying a Jedi if you cant use the cool animations and stuff. Continuing,moments later an immature and dishonourablebounty hunter appears. Starts some harrassment, general anti-social behaviour. Totally ruining my immersion and the atmosphere. However, I love to see the bounty hunter that joins in, merges into the storyline, even if it is a feeble attempt and they try to take a pop at me
I'm all for groups and guildmates not giving visibility. Have said so many times. But most people who complain about visibility don't stop there. They don't want NPCs or stormtroopers to give them visibility too. I don't know if youre one of those people or not, but you cant tell me that roleplaying wise, if you go slashing stormies up with lightsabers that they arent going to tell people about you.
So yes, Im definately all for an improved visibility system that makes sense, but I don't think that you should be able to flash your force powers around whenever you please without consequences. If you are really a roleplayer, you should understand that.
What is the relevence? How does this relate to your idea?
Well, the wholejedi hunting concept is based around this idea of "population control" and "slowing progress"; basically griefing other playersin the hope that they quit or just for the sake of punishing them.
It can't be griefing if the game is designed for that. You are supposed to be in hiding, the bounty hunters are there to either force you into hiding or make you pay the consequence for it. You are playing in a living world with other players. Its not a tabletop roleplaying game where you make the story and make sure your character is the star of the game. Other players want to be the star too in SWG.
You want to have fun fighting Jedi, ask for a /duel! You need money? Go play in space or do npc missions! If you want the power tostand toe to toe witha Jedi Knight,become a Jedi Knight yourself!
I have asked many times whyJedi are hunted. Many respond with: "For the greater good of the game! To reduce the population! Because Jedi are lame and need to die! Order 66!". For what purpose, what effect on the game? "Improve roleplaying, immersion and continuity! Jedi should be in hiding, not duelling in starports and ganking in the GCW!". Well, I agree 100%, but every attempt at roleplaying will usually conclude with some interuption by a team of bounty hunters.
Again, would love to see some changes in visibility, but it is what it is.
Enix_Dayspring wrote:
But if you want to be the Best of the Best, a Jedi Knight slayer, you will need more...
ForceShot (or something like that) - Drains small amount of force from your opponent. Should be equivillant of Jedi's drain force skill. -7 million prestige
Concentration Shot - Simlar to Jedi "Breach Force" ability, gives a chance to remove the Jedi's buffs such as Aura or Valor by breaking their concentration. -7 million prestige
Now it seems to me, this was inspired by your desire for greaterprowess in jedihunting.Allow me to inform you as a long time bounty hunter prior to achieving Jedi, wealready possess great powers ofour own! First strike, subterfuge, surprise, cunning, tactics to name a few. If you choose not to use them, tough! If you want to kill a knight in a straight 1v1 fight through sheer brute force and an FOTM, become one yourself!
You're right there. Bounty Hunters do have a huge advantage with first strike, on low end jedi characters. Knights must be taken in teams, and that's what I would like to see gone. No more ganking, I'll take on anyone in a 1 vs. 1 fight. But as I said before, I don't want to be an invincible character, I dont find that enjoyable. And I've seen too many 1 Jedi Knight vs. 4 or 5 Bounty Hunters, AND WINNING, to think that is really fun, for either side.
To conclude, the idea is nice. Would be best implemented as additional content for all professions. It is a powerful concept. However integrating it into a system that is already flawed at the most fundamental levels, such as Jedi vs BH, it will only aggrivate more issues. We need something to improve roleplaying and immersion. Actually improve the game! Not promote griefing and 1337ism!
The logic of introducing "roleplaying class" that could only be obtained by power gamers and possessed the ability to even be allowed toparticipate inthe GCW whileannihlating every other class still illudes me.
Not sure why you think Jedi were intended as a "roleplaying only" class. From my memory of Holocron and the devs talking about Jedi as being a largely PvP oriented group. After all, what would a group of Jedi be doing when theres an eveil Sith Empire around? Either hiding in wait of the son of the chosen one as their only hope (Boring as heck) or joining the rebellion and leading the fight like the jedi masters of old did.
I certainly don't think of going out mass slaughtering Krayt Dragons or Acklays when I think of Jedi.
My vision of the prestige system would eventually spread to all classes as the type of "elite-elite professions" that we were told were possible, but I think all of us will never really see that. But a prestige type system would work well as far as that would go.
The reason I started it with Bounty Hunters is because the BH/Jedi relationship is by far the worst thing happening to the SWG community right now. For those who take the time to actually read through the details and pick up on the nuance of the system, they would see that the prestige system would actually be a HUGE benefit for Jedi as much as it would for Bounty Hunters.