Bounty Hunter Archive

So it would be kind of pointless to post this in the Jedi forums, because they wouldn't listen to an idea proposed by a BH even if it benefited them. Plus we have so many of their trolls, I'm sure they'll respond here anyways.

I've noticed how a lot of times Jedi will complain about the fact that they don't get to wear armor. I know of one guy in particular that keeps ranting about the need for helmets for Jedi since they can't defend against mind attacks.

The way I see it, Jedi are a lot better off than this argument makes it sound. I don't know about force attacks, but no one gets resistance against lightsaber damage. You can wear whatever armor you want...it ain't going to help you if it isn't resistant to the damage type being afflicted. Jedi don't get to wear armor, so they can't protect against the damages of other players either.

When fighting against another Jedi, this translates to the same situation everyone is in when fighting a Jedi...they have no armor defense against the attacks of the other player. Even playing field.

When fighting against a melee attacker, the melee attacker can't protect against the attacks of the Jedi, and the Jedi can't defend against the attacks of the melee player. Even playing field.

When fighting against a ranged attacker, the ranged attacker can't protect against the attacks of the Jedi, and the Jedi has no resistance against the attacks of the ranged player. Even playing field. However, if the Jedi picks up MLS (like basically every Jedi template says to get), the Jedi picks up an 85% chance to completely negate the attack of the ranged player. This isn't like with armor, where you block a percentage of the damage. Jedi just completely negate the advantage. This is a huge advantage, as I'm sure everyone will agree, whether you agree with it being right or not.

So basically, while at first it may seem unfair that Jedi don't get to wear armor (really I think this is rooted in the RPG tradition of magicians/etc. not being able to wear armor and perfrom magic translating into Jedi not being able to use their "magic" while wearing armor...but I could be wrong), in reality it does no more than put them on a level playing field against every form of attack. Letting them wear armor would only tip the scales grossly in their favor.

When fighting against a Jedi, they still wouldn't be able to block the damage, just like everyone else. Even playing field.

When fighting a melee template, they get to negate (probably...depending on armor) 70-80+% of damage done to them, while the player they would be fighting cannot negate any of the damage done by the Jedi. Big advantage to Jedi.

When fighting a ranged template, they not only get to completely negate 85% of all attacks, but that 15% of attacks that gets through will be further negated 70-80+% by the armor...all while the ranged template player still has no defense against the attacks of the Jedi. HUGE advantage to Jedi.

I don't expect many Jedi who already think they should get to wear armor to be persuaded by my argument. But I hope that some of them might maybe gain a new insight to a game mechanic that they may not have thought about yet.

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wyzer301 wrote:
So it would be kind of pointless to post this in the Jedi forums, because they wouldn't listen to an idea proposed by a BH even if it benefited them. Plus we have so many of their trolls, I'm sure they'll respond here anyways.

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1. A person who makes posts (on newsgroups or other forums) that are solely intended to provoke responses from others, or to cause annoyance or offense.

Not agreeing with your lame ideas does not equal being a troll. Finally that fact that you keep overlooking is that most jedi are former holo grinders and MANY of them are former BHs i know many jedi with bh alts. They want to see the game balanced and in most cases have the experience to know how.

Message Edited by cydonia on 12-08-2004 09:34 PM

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SamousNemo wrote:

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cydonia wrote:

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wyzer301 wrote:
So it would be kind of pointless to post this in the Jedi forums, because they wouldn't listen to an idea proposed by a BH even if it benefited them. Plus we have so many of their trolls, I'm sure they'll respond here anyways.

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You know what i read this and didnt continue if you really think that jedi wont listen is retarted. You say jedi dont listen to you but i see you post all the time. You propose these ideas which prove you know nothing about how the jedi system works in theory and when people dont like your idea you assume "jedi trolls"

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But didn't you just prove him right by not reading his entire post? Granted, Wyzer's approach wasn't exactly PC, but hell, maybe if you read the whole thing you might see if he has a valid argument.

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If you have an idea and want to share it you have to be reasonable or people will flame you. I will listen to anyone that is reasonable. To start a post about jedi with a flame about jedi in the first 2 lines thats not reasonable. By the way i did read the whole post.

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wyzer301 wrote:
So it would be kind of pointless to post this in the Jedi forums, because they wouldn't listen to an idea proposed by a BH even if it benefited them. Plus we have so many of their trolls, I'm sure they'll respond here anyways.

I've noticed how a lot of times Jedi will complain about the fact that they don't get to wear armor. I know of one guy in particular that keeps ranting about the need for helmets for Jedi since they can't defend against mind attacks.

The way I see it, Jedi are a lot better off than this argument makes it sound. I don't know about force attacks, but no one gets resistance against lightsaber damage. You can wear whatever armor you want...it ain't going to help you if it isn't resistant to the damage type being afflicted. Jedi don't get to wear armor, so they can't protect against the damages of other players either.

When fighting against another Jedi, this translates to the same situation everyone is in when fighting a Jedi...they have no armor defense against the attacks of the other player. Even playing field.

When fighting against a melee attacker, the melee attacker can't protect against the attacks of the Jedi, and the Jedi can't defend against the attacks of the melee player. Even playing field.

When fighting against a ranged attacker, the ranged attacker can't protect against the attacks of the Jedi, and the Jedi has no resistance against the attacks of the ranged player. Even playing field. However, if the Jedi picks up MLS (like basically every Jedi template says to get), the Jedi picks up an 85% chance to completely negate the attack of the ranged player. This isn't like with armor, where you block a percentage of the damage. Jedi just completely negate the advantage. This is a huge advantage, as I'm sure everyone will agree, whether you agree with it being right or not.

So basically, while at first it may seem unfair that Jedi don't get to wear armor (really I think this is rooted in the RPG tradition of magicians/etc. not being able to wear armor and perfrom magic translating into Jedi not being able to use their "magic" while wearing armor...but I could be wrong), in reality it does no more than put them on a level playing field against every form of attack. Letting them wear armor would only tip the scales grossly in their favor.

When fighting against a Jedi, they still wouldn't be able to block the damage, just like everyone else. Even playing field.

When fighting a melee template, they get to negate (probably...depending on armor) 70-80+% of damage done to them, while the player they would be fighting cannot negate any of the damage done by the Jedi. Big advantage to Jedi.

When fighting a ranged template, they not only get to completely negate 85% of all attacks, but that 15% of attacks that gets through will be further negated 70-80+% by the armor...all while the ranged template player still has no defense against the attacks of the Jedi. HUGE advantage to Jedi.

I don't expect many Jedi who already think they should get to wear armor to be persuaded by my argument. But I hope that some of them might maybe gain a new insight to a game mechanic that they may not have thought about yet.

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I'm not even going to bother responding to cydonia. I did see two arguments right off the bat that I wanted to respond to.

It is correct that when one shot gets through, it hits hard. But look at it like this. My scatter shot with my laser carb does about 1000 damage, give or take. (I actually think it is more, but I'm trying to use nice even numbers...the math should still hold true either way). If I hit with scatter shot 100 times against a person in armor who has 85% resistance to energy, 150 points get through every time, for a total of 15000 points of damage. If I hit with scatter shot 100 times against a MLS Jedi, they actually completely stop 85% of my shots, so 15 times I get 1000 points of damage through, for a total of 15000 points of damage. Works out to about the same.

This is where the other point I wanted to respond to comes in. Jedi toughness and force armor. If these are indeed broken (which I admittedly don't know enough about because I usually see enough of our problems that I miss what everyone else is dealing with, but not intentionally) then I would say they need to be fixed. I don't know what numbers they should be at, but if they don't work at all, it oughta be fixed. If it were working, it generally would mitigate the damage that does get through much in the same way that any other professions secondary defenses mitigate damage. I would say that the only difference is that I'm sure the combination of the two jedi defenses will probably be superior to the defenses of any other professions when fixed, so if they did work, Jedi still have an advantage there.

However, the real key point that I was trying to get at is the fact that because lightsaber damage can't be stopped by armor, players fighting against the Jedi are in the same boat as Jedi are, because even though we CAN wear armor, it does nothing for us.

Personally in many ways im glad i dont have to wear armour, i hate the stuff.

As for its defensive properties this is the real sticking point.

85% saber block while yes seemingly superior to armour (and in many cases id agree) if a shot gets through it hits hard. In PVE saber block doesnt help in most cases, corvette and dwb sure but anything melee and jedi are screwed unless they take the defender tree (boring as hell considering the amount of grinding to get) or force armour 2 (drains force like mad).

Im not saying we need armour im honestly fairly happy atm but the argument in some cases is valid.

One thing i will say however is that we are combat balanced, after cb armour will be nerfed so normal profs will also be hit harder in PVE and defence stacking should be a thing of the past. People want/need armour to be solo gods but the idea is to encourage group play and complementary templates, if your group can support you there is no need for armour it worked in the past and it can work now the devs just need to ween people off armour as an everyday clothing item.

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wyzer301 wrote:
I'm not even going to bother responding to cydonia. I did see two arguments right off the bat that I wanted to respond to.

It is correct that when one shot gets through, it hits hard. But look at it like this. My scatter shot with my laser carb does about 1000 damage, give or take. (I actually think it is more, but I'm trying to use nice even numbers...the math should still hold true either way). If I hit with scatter shot 100 times against a person in armor who has 85% resistance to energy, 150 points get through every time, for a total of 15000 points of damage. If I hit with scatter shot 100 times against a MLS Jedi, they actually completely stop 85% of my shots, so 15 times I get 1000 points of damage through, for a total of 15000 points of damage. Works out to about the same.

This is where the other point I wanted to respond to comes in. Jedi toughness and force armor. If these are indeed broken (which I admittedly don't know enough about because I usually see enough of our problems that I miss what everyone else is dealing with, but not intentionally) then I would say they need to be fixed. I don't know what numbers they should be at, but if they don't work at all, it oughta be fixed. If it were working, it generally would mitigate the damage that does get through much in the same way that any other professions secondary defenses mitigate damage. I would say that the only difference is that I'm sure the combination of the two jedi defenses will probably be superior to the defenses of any other professions when fixed, so if they did work, Jedi still have an advantage there.

However, the real key point that I was trying to get at is the fact that because lightsaber damage can't be stopped by armor, players fighting against the Jedi are in the same boat as Jedi are, because even though we CAN wear armor, it does nothing for us.

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Actually, I thought this was a pretty well thought-out post.
The difference between having 15% damage coming through on every shot, and 15% of the shots coming through at full damage is this:
15% of 1000 points is 150 points, and isn't instant death. In fact, it's a managable HAM drain, as we all know.
100% of 1000 is 1000, and while it's great for the other 85% of the rounds, in the one it lands, you're half-dead in a single hit, with buffs. Without buffs, you're dead in a single hit.
Agreed, over 100 rounds of combat you're going to be roughly equal, but let's face it; I'd rather tote 10 fifty-pound bags up a flight of stairs than one five-hundred-lb bag, if I've got my choice.

As to post-block mitigation, I suspect it's screwed up. Some days my post block PVE damage is in the 90's to the 120's, other days it's 250+ from identical creatures. Or maybe it's just something I'm not taking into account.

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wyzer301 wrote:
I'm not even going to bother responding to cydonia. I did see two arguments right off the bat that I wanted to respond to.

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Sneakthief2004 wrote:

I don't have a problem with not wearing armour, at least we get to wear something else so we don't all look the same (i don't think anyone wears the robes above MLS). So that little bit of variation is nice.

Jedi toughness only works with melee not ranged and Force Armour will drain your force pretty rapidly unless you are fairly high ranked.

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