Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: The TRUE Problem With Jedi's Strength
-Darkstarr- wrote:
If you spent 4+ hours a day doing nothing but training to kill another player, preparing with the best foods, tactics, and weaponry, you're going to annhilate 99% of anyone you come across.
Point is: LEARN your template.'Strength' is only relative to the skill of the individual playing the character.
I just wanted to reiterate these points.
If you have time to whine about it, you're never going to be good. Good pvper dont sit and wait for good things to happen. They learn to work with what they have. And although it doesnt suit some people, sometime you have to change template to be the best you can be. Whether that means adding healing, or otherwise. You have to know your limitations and work to compensate for it the best you can.
You do when your waiting at work for a server to update, but playing is frowned upon...
Good PvP'er also seem to run in ganksquad groups...
Sundal wrote:
-Darkstarr- wrote:
If you spent 4+ hours a day doing nothing but training to kill another player, preparing with the best foods, tactics, and weaponry, you're going to annhilate 99% of anyone you come across.
Point is: LEARN your template.'Strength' is only relative to the skill of the individual playing the character.
I just wanted to reiterate these points.
If you have time to whine about it, you're never going to be good. Good pvper dont sit and wait for good things to happen. They learn to work with what they have. And although it doesnt suit some people, sometime you have to change template to be the best you can be. Whether that means adding healing, or otherwise. You have to know your limitations and work to compensate for it the best you can.
-Darkstarr- wrote:
No offense, but you sound like you picked up Jedi because you couldn't pvp without one. My Jedi doesn't have Defender either.
And sabers are the best weapon in pvp at the moment because their min-max have less than 100 damage difference. You'll never hit for less than 100 below your max damage with your lowest powered special. Try that with a pistol.
Message Edited by -Darkstarr- on 10-17-2005 12:51 PM
Alot of Jedi are like that. I really have no respect for the ones that run in gank squads but when you jump them one on one prepared or not they cloak and run. Yeah it's their right to do that but in my mind it doesn't make the Jedi profession look very deserving.
But yeah I take on Jedi with a pistol. It's tough, you have to time everything perfectly and not miss a step because they are hitting you for 600-800 (after armor) while you are hitting them for 100-200 damage and missing half the time. If you go against a Jedi chances are they'll have at least 700 defense on you and then can block alot of your shots even after the fact. The minimum damage thing is huge.
-Darkstarr- wrote:
If you spent 4+ hours a day doing nothing but training to kill another player, preparing with the best foods, tactics, and weaponry, you're going to annhilate 99% of anyone you come across.
That is why Bounty Hunter's appear so strong. That said, I will admit that health buff crystals and Combat Medic's Thyroid Rupture are overpowered. However, most Jedi aren't prepared for a Bounty Hunter and get wiped to the floor because, guess what, the Bounty Hunter is prepared to fight a Jedi. Is the Jedi prepared for the Bounty Hunter? In almost ever case, no.
Take into account also that most post-CU Jedi ground AFK or in spin-groups, requiring the Jedi to learn very little of their template. Most Jedi's make the excuse that their pearls and crystals are sub par: I ran Bounty Hunter missions for 2 months(87 million credits in Bounties and loots)to fund my current equipment. How many Jedi do nothing but hunt Krayts for 2months or camp crystal-dropping mobs? You will find very few that did, and guess what? Those are the Jedi that waste Bounty Hunters with ease.
Point is: LEARN your template.'Strength' is only relative to the skill of the individual playing the character.
love ur point here, ever since i decided to become a BH i duel everyone i can, at lvl 65 i could take down most lvl 80s even took down a jedi that was almost full temp, its incredible wen i see someone dueling and they dont even know wat to do. duel rating is like 15wins-1loss now, i even take on MCHs and let them use there pets
but then i hit a preCU jedi and they kill me in 7 hits while i'm am healing my MCM but off, stims alting bactashot and toss and i have to wonder.....how the hell am i gonna fight this wen i finish off BH?
temp is BH2444 MCM rifles 4200
I agree a new Jedi have it rough with the bad pearl/crystal tunes, but if you want to be 'The Best' you have to invest the time. I know plenty of post-cu Jedi with sabers that have a 650-680 max damage. Yes it took them a lot of work and tunes to get there, but they did it. If your Jedi isn't strong enough to to hunt krayts, you have an alt (MRifle/MCM is good for that I hear). If your alts a crafter, save all the credits you can and buy'em.
But take the time to learn ALL of your abilities, even the ones that 'suck'. I watch a lot of newer (and some older) Jedi fighting Bounty Hunters, and they don't use all of their skills, just the same ones over and over. Instead of using Force Wave to keep that guy in a reasonable range, they only use suppression. Instead of knowing what attacks to use to get the most hits in as possible, they just KD and Power attack.
Get a few friends together, group up, throw down a generic guild hall, set it to private and practice PvPing on the roof if you want.
Today killing a Jedi is like plucking apples....not even a challenge. I remember when a 225k mark (hell killing a 15k full temp Jedi mark) was something to brag about when you used a carbine.....
and today, what....every BH can do it.
/sigh
I loved the underdog position of BH...but now we jst another FOTM.
I have to agree with the premise.
However, I didn't spend two months getting pearls/crystals when pursuing Jedi.
But I'm not complaining. I'm not done with my temp (been playing other games the majority of the time). When I finish I'll work on getting pearls and crystals. Can't really camp crystals at this point because of vis. Can't really camp pearls because Tat is just too damn busy...which leads to vis.
Xalya_Shadowalker wrote:
I think you make great points, and for the most part are right. The Jedi that spin-grouped or Ryatted don't know their templates deserve to be hunted and killed. But, I think there are exceptions too. Jedi strength is not what it once was and I've seen a couple instances of people who know how to play their Jedi being waxed by a noob respecBH simply because they had bad luck with tunes/conversions and have a crappy sabers.
No player deserves to be hunted and killed, period. TheseJedi took advantage of an opportunity.Players every day "learn the ropes" so to speak out there hunting in AOE groups. PvP is not the only learning environment.
It's easy to say 'know your template', but even all the knowledge of your template in the world can't help you if you're using a seriously sub-par weapon. Lightsabers are slower and less damaging than many of the weapons used against Jedi, the healing is poorer, and the defenses are clustered together in one tree.
Part of knowing your template, includes knowing which equipment to use, which would include knowing that your lightsaber is sub par. This goes back to investing time, effort, money, or all into hunting down mobs that will yield proper pearls/crystals for the weapon. But at the same time, I've seen Jedi with "crappy" lightsabers literally carve players to pieces. So again, it's not soley the equipment, but back to the player.
Skill is, of course, a large part of being able to win, but so is picking where to fight and having the equipment to fight. With Jedi power being brought ever closer to a normal professions (Padawan's are only 1x a normal profession according to devs at FanFest), the inability to create a high-end weapon, weaker healing, and mostly the inability to choose when and where a fight happens is tipping the scales in favor of the bounty hunter. As you said, two equal players, one is out buffed, ready, looking for a fight, the other is caught unprepared, who wins? The hunter of course. It used to be that this surprise was the counterbalance to Jedi strength, but with many Jedi being underpowered this 'balancing element' has become disbalancing in favor of the Bounty Hunter. Add on top of this the lack of a comparable weapon and the weaker healing and it becomes very difficult for some Jedi, even ones who know their template front and back, to beat a bounty hunter.
100% agree. The rigth timeing makes the difference between winning and losing. "Underpowered" has such a broad definition and connotation in this case, it cannot be used effectively to convey your point.
Now, let me clarify what I'm saying. As a Jedi (MDef, LS4404, Healer4000, Enh3002) I cannot recall losing a post-cu fight (not including being ganked afk) so I don't have a problem with the theoretical Jedi power. I have a good saber and I've got a good template. But other templates are not as good (Mpowers for one) and those with poor tunes don't have good sabers that allow them to be as strong as they should be. Sure, they could farm 10000+ pearls for their tunes, but would most likely still not have 'perfects'. This should be fixed with the reinclusion of Premium/Flawlesses, but for now remains a point to consider.
Some PvP templates are not as good as others. For instance a MBH/MRM/4xx4 pistoleer is extremely powerful, but will fall quickly if caught in a root/kd chain and sliced to death with a lightsaber. However, drop the pistoleer and 4xxx CM and that template becomes a tanker. The system was "designed" such that any player could beat another, but sadly from change after change, this is not the case. Now, only a select few templates really have in inherant advantage or "better chance" to win. Those being MBH + 4xxxCM + 1 ranged master or MBH/MCM combinations. This shift in game dymanics has practically forced the Bounty Hunter community into the same 2 templates with slight variations. Same goes for Jedi. Most Jedi that I know are Master Defenders with Healer4xxx. That doesn't leave much room for variety. With the new cloak change coming out with the next publish or so, this will push even more Jedi into one or 2 template choices.
If we all just played our profession to our strengths and learned what our weaknesses are I'd be a happier jedi. But most don't. Most want the I win button. Supposedly my Powers prof is gimped, do I care, no because it is fun. I just take the advice of most BH's when they say "Stay off the Terminals".
Message Edited by Jakber on 10-18-2005 11:09 AM