Bounty Hunter Archive
Thread: An in-depth weapon comparison (New! Improved! Now with 87% fewer flawed assumptions!)
First, excellent work. We should be plugging this examination of math up to high-school kids so that they might actually see the purpose of it. The math is pretty simple, but the presentation was excellent.
Second: Guys... please no linear regressions. Please. I'm at work, and I came to this board to forget curvefitting and multivariate analysis. Please stop.
No, really. If you run into a bump, I have some pretty solid curving programs and a good background in it, send me a pm if you need help. From the competency implied in the early posts though... I think you'll have no trouble.
Again, well done.
-FL
Volsted,
This obviously took a great deal of time for you to work out, and it demonstratesconsiderable dedication to your fellow players and a desire to help where you can. I applaud your efforts.
If I may, I like tohelp address a question someone asked of your post: Tthe HAM "Volsted Rating" is a simplifed way to examine and compare the relative HAM cost efficiency of a weapon. When you perform specials that damage is a straight mutliplier of the nomral damage done, and the delay is a straight multiplier of the normal speed. Therefore any special performed will be impacted by the same special attack multipliers by the same numbers, which he already presented. Yes, they will all increase, but by the same basic relative ratio. By looking at the Volsted Rating you can see therelative ratio of HAM costs, and see which weapon would be more efficient (damage dealt to HAM costs) when performing your special moves. I can see where he was going with it.It serves it's purposenicely.
Great job, Volsted!
~Lyahpar~
La Femme Fencer
"Thrust if you love Fencers!"
Wow great job volsted. This is by far the most informative post on weaponary i have every read. And as someone constantly analysing my equipment i was amazed at so much i didn't know. The 80/20% damage distribution and the 1.5 modifier over base damage.
Got a few points to make and requests if you have the time to crunch more numbers.
First after last patch i think the 1sec speed cap was removed from pistols. Before patch my krayt pistols turned out 1sec, and patch i have some .8 and .7 sec scatter pistols. (stupid speed slices). I have heard the new base for pistols is .5 but never seen anything official on this.
I was wondering if you could firgure out, for the specific delays of BH pistol line specials (ie. torso andeye shot, flast blast), and with the speed modifiers at master BH. What is maximum speed you can have on a pistol, which would make no difference to speed of spamming specials.
Thus the optimum speed, for a scatter pistol for a master bh.
After all the work you have done, i know it is alot to request more. So i understand if you decline, but you seem good at number crunching
I'm by no means stupid, although mathematics is by no means my speciality (I dislike complex mathematics with a vengeance, it all just seems unneccesary)... but this is all completely.... *gapes*
Well done, that's quite something to achieve, but... This is a game, that is not intended to be belittling, I hate people who use the term game in a way that refers to it as being inconsequential, but It's a game, and so you are supposed to play and enjoy it
I hate stats in games, I cover it all up with some creative roleplay and everything is so much prettier, and this is statmongering to the extreme 
Just enjoy your fencing, duel each other, determine the victor by the one who wins, not by who'se HAM stats and sword damage are the highest and most effective according to your mathematic equations.
this reminds me of listening to people explain why their cars are faster/slower than anothers. lol,
Great Posts, Take a Bow.
Agnius wrote:
First after last patch i think the 1sec speed cap was removed from pistols. Before patch my krayt pistols turned out 1sec, and patch i have some .8 and .7 sec scatter pistols. (stupid speed slices). I have heard the new base for pistols is .5 but never seen anything official on this.
That was something that was rumored to be under consideration, along with a 3.0 second cap for Rifles, a 1.0 second cap for Carbines, etc.
Last I heard, that had been shelved and was no longer being considered, and did not make it to the live servers.
Agnius wrote:
I was wondering if you could firgure out, for the specific delays of BH pistol line specials (ie. torso andeye shot, flast blast), and with the speed modifiers at master BH. What is maximum speed you can have on a pistol, which would make no difference to speed of spamming specials.
That would depend on the maximum speed mod delay for your various specials. If you know the speed delay mod for a given special, you can calculate what the Base Weapon Speed would need to be for your gun at Master Bounty Hunter level (or, at least, at Bounty Pistol Spec IV) to hit the 1.0 second speed cap with that particular special. The formula for this calculation is:
Base Weapon Speed = (5/Special Delay Mod)
WARNING: That formula WILL NOT BE ACCURATE unless you've trained all the way up to Bounty Pistol Spec IV. If you're not at at least that level, don't use the formula because your results will be off.
With that warning out of the way, the above formula will tell you what the maximum Base Weapon Speed you'd need to fire off any given special attack at the 1.0 speed cap, assuming you know the Special Delay Mod. Like, if Eyeshot had a 2.0 delay mod, then at Bounty Pistol Spec IV you'd need a pistol with a Base Weapon Speed of 2.5 or faster to fire Eyeshot once per second.
My original post is not meant to be the Ultimate Weapon Comparison Bible(tm), with the list of ratings inscribed in stone as some sort of holy writ. The list of weapons I presented was done solely to illustrate how the Effectiveness Ratings formula worked in practice. I think most people understand this, but I've gotten a few /tells and a few private messages from folks which suggest that some people are taking that list and assuming that it's the Absolute Last Word on Weapon Comparisons. And it's not.
All of those weapons are stock, and the quality of those weapons will be naturally different from the quality of weapons you get from your favorite weaponsmith on your particular server. A Scout Blaster may be better than a DX2 on Tempest, due to the resources, but may be worse on Gorath, for example, due to the differentiation between resources on the various servers.
Different weaponsmiths on the same server may produce different quality weapons, either because they experiment differently, or because some have stockpiles of better quality material that others don't have access to.
And, of course, slicing your weapons makes a huge difference as well, and will change their rating considerably.
So don't look at my list of weapon ratings and say "Ah HAH! The FWGS is always superior to the Scout Blaster!" Because it may not be true on your server. I realize that I am mostly to blame for this confusion, due to the way I wrote my original post. So I'm taking this opportunity to clarify the issue.
The most important part of that message is the formula for the Effectiveness Rating itself.
Effectiveness Rating = {[(Min + Max)/2] * (1.5) * (1.25)^N}/Base Weapon Speed
With that formula, you can rate any weapon you have, regardless of the quality of materials on your server (which may be, on average, better or worse than the materials on my server), regardless of the expertise used to create it, and regardless of whether or not it's sliced.
And if you don't want to do the math yourself, there are at least two places on the web now where you can get tools to do the calculations for you. All you have to do is plug in the numbers:
http://rothwellhome.org/SWGWeaponEvaluator.htm
http://users.adelphia.net/~dmccollum/files/WeaponEffect.xls
You will need a specific plug in to use the first URL, and you will need MS Excel (or a viewer of some kind) to use the second. But both will do all the calculations for you.
Dillos wrote:
As Volsted said, these are effectiveness ratings asuming noone has hit the speed cap. However, at master level, almost every weapon will be at speed cap except the commando weapons (flamethrower and launcher pistol) andcarbines. These calculatins used effectiveness rating provided by Volsted, and were not calculated from scratch. So these numbers are subject to rounding error.Here are the effectiveness ratings of each weapon listed here wielded by a master of that profession without master marksmen (exceptfor BH and Commando of course):
Well done, compadre. Excellent work. I think your post illustrates that, in general, Carbineers should seriously consider going for Master Marksman as well as Master Carbineer, and they should probably look for speed slices and powerups rather than damage slices and powerups, at least in the PvP game (and possibly in the PvE game as well).
My original post is not meant to be the Ultimate Weapon Comparison Bible(tm), with the list of ratings inscribed in stone as some sort of holy writ. The list of weapons I presented was done solely to illustrate how the Effectiveness Ratings formula worked in practice. I think most people understand this, but I've gotten a few /tells and a few private messages from folks which suggest that some people are taking that list and assuming that it's the Absolute Last Word on Weapon Comparisons. And it's not.
All of those weapons are stock, and the quality of those weapons will be naturally different from the quality of weapons you get from your favorite weaponsmith on your particular server. A Scout Blaster may be better than a DX2 on Tempest, due to the resources, but may be worse on Gorath, for example, due to the differentiation between resources on the various servers.
Different weaponsmiths on the same server may produce different quality weapons, either because they experiment differently, or because some have stockpiles of better quality material that others don't have access to.
And, of course, slicing your weapons makes a huge difference as well, and will change their rating considerably.
So don't look at my list of weapon ratings and say "Ah HAH! The FWGS is always superior to the Scout Blaster!" Because it may not be true on your server. I realize that I am mostly to blame for this confusion, due to the way I wrote my original post. So I'm taking this opportunity to clarify the issue.
The most important part of that message is the formula for the Effectiveness Rating itself.
Effectiveness Rating = {[(Min + Max)/2] * (1.5) * (1.25)^N}/Base Weapon Speed
With that formula, you can rate any weapon you have, regardless of the quality of materials on your server (which may be, on average, better or worse than the materials on my server), regardless of the expertise used to create it, and regardless of whether or not it's sliced.
And if you don't want to do the math yourself, there are at least two places on the web now where you can get tools to do the calculations for you. All you have to do is plug in the numbers:
http://rothwellhome.org/SWGWeaponEvaluator.htm
http://users.adelphia.net/~dmccollum/files/WeaponEffect.xls
You will need a specific plug in to use the first URL, and you will need MS Excel (or a viewer of some kind) to use the second. But both will do all the calculations for you.
Raphayl wrote:
Volsted,
This obviously took a great deal of time for you to work out, and it demonstratesconsiderable dedication to your fellow players and a desire to help where you can. I applaud your efforts.
If I may, I like tohelp address a question someone asked of your post: Tthe HAM "Volsted Rating" is a simplifed way to examine and compare the relative HAM cost efficiency of a weapon. When you perform specials that damage is a straight mutliplier of the nomral damage done, and the delay is a straight multiplier of the normal speed. Therefore any special performed will be impacted by the same special attack multipliers by the same numbers, which he already presented. Yes, they will all increase, but by the same basic relative ratio. By looking at the Volsted Rating you can see therelative ratio of HAM costs, and see which weapon would be more efficient (damage dealt to HAM costs) when performing your special moves. I can see where he was going with it.It serves it's purposenicely.
Great job, Volsted!
~Lyahpar~
La Femme Fencer
"Thrust if you love Fencers!"
Not necessarily. I haven't looked at any actual numbers, but if you wanted to compare the relative efficiency of Head shot 2 vs Head shot 3, for example, you would find that volsted rating using these new numbers would be radically different. Well, maybe not radically, but they will not simply increase arithmetically. The Volsted rating *should* go up in value with the more advanced shots, but as I understand it, Head Shot 3 has a bigger HAM cost increase than a damage increase when compared to Head Shot 2.
This would mean that the Volsted Rating for a particular weapon would probably be higher for Head Shot 2 than for Head Shot 3
Hell, I might as well do the math...here we go. These numbers are taken from other threads, and are assumed to be correct.
Using the original weapon:100-200 Damage; 3.5 Speed; 15/20/25 HAM; AP: Heavy
Head Shot2: Damage x2.5, Time x1.75mind usage x5
Head Shot3: Damage x3.0, Time x2.0mind usage x7
MyModified Volsted Rating formula: {[(Min damage+Max damage)/2] * Special Multiplier * (if >0, (1.25)^AP)} / (Weapon Speed * Special speed mult) / (HAM * HAM mult)
For Health HAM, HS2 we get (150 * 2.5 * 1.95) / (3.5 * 1.75) / (15 * 5) = 1.6
For Action HAM, HS2 we get (150 * 2.5 * 1.95) / (3.5 * 1.75) / (20 * 5) = 1.19
For Mind HAM, HS2 we get (150 * 2.5 * 1.95) / (3.5 * 1.75) / (25 * 5) = 0.955
For Health HAM, HS3 we get (150 *3.0 * 1.95) / (3.5 * 2.0) / (15 * 7) = 1.19
For Action HAM, HS3 we get (150 *3.0 * 1.95) / (3.5 * 2.0) / (20 * 7) = 0.895
For Mind HAM, HS3 we get (150 *3.0 * 1.95) / (3.5 * 2.0) / (25 * 7) = 0.716
So we can see that the damage per speed per HAM cost is higher with HS2 than with HS3.
Just to make sure this is all right, let's do Head Shot 1 like this.
Head Shot1: Damage x1.5, Time x1.5mind usage x4
For Health HAM, HS1 we get (150 *1.5 * 1.95) / (3.5 * 1.5) / (15 * 4) = 1.39
For Action HAM, HS1 we get (150 *1.5 * 1.95) / (3.5 * 1.5) / (20 * 4) = 1.04
For Mind HAM, HS1 we get (150 *1.5 * 1.95) / (3.5 * 1.5) / (25 * 4) = 0.836
With these data, we can see that either HS1 is better than HS2, or HS2 is the best value of them all, with HS1 surpassing even HS3 when it comes to dps/HAM costs!
This is where I think the Volsted rating is important. Someone pointed out earlier that the actual HAM costs per person will vary when using the same shot, but the comparison is when ONE person uses multiple shots with one rifle, or multiple rifles with one shot, because the Volsted Ratings are perfectly relative to each other.
Keep in mind that the Volsted rating is dependant on HAM costs - the ratings are Null if HAM costs are not used with Auto-Attack! (can not divide by zero)
I'm slightly awake today, so I felt up to some thinking, I hope this stuff is right, it seems to be
Please comment.
Oh, I just thought of something - I remember in other posts that the HAM multipliers are different for each stat. I don't have that information or I would have used it - Only the Mind ratings should be seriously considered, as the Health and Action Volsted ratings should be much higher. Mind costs are the only things we are concerned with.
Raphayl wrote:
Volsted,
This obviously took a great deal of time for you to work out, and it demonstratesconsiderable dedication to your fellow players and a desire to help where you can. I applaud your efforts.
If I may, I like tohelp address a question someone asked of your post: Tthe HAM "Volsted Rating" is a simplifed way to examine and compare the relative HAM cost efficiency of a weapon. When you perform specials that damage is a straight mutliplier of the nomral damage done, and the delay is a straight multiplier of the normal speed. Therefore any special performed will be impacted by the same special attack multipliers by the same numbers, which he already presented. Yes, they will all increase, but by the same basic relative ratio. By looking at the Volsted Rating you can see therelative ratio of HAM costs, and see which weapon would be more efficient (damage dealt to HAM costs) when performing your special moves. I can see where he was going with it.It serves it's purposenicely.
Great job, Volsted!
~Lyahpar~
La Femme Fencer
"Thrust if you love Fencers!"
Sorry, I didn't read your post closely enough. You are right, but I'm not sure that I agree withthe original formula since HAM costs are non-existent in auto-attack (correct me if I'm wrong), so the numbers weren't coming out quite right, even though the comparisons were sound.