Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: So I had an idea....
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NancyJ
Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:01 pm
#1
I know, you're all worried already, but hear me out 
Just as a warning, I've had a few cans, and i've been talking to DocSavag, so blame him if I'm talking drivel lol
So I was thinking about tissues and resources and stuff like that.
As I see it the biggest problems we have with our organic resources are: resources that suck to get and competing with chefs and docs for resources.
Now the reason we compete is cos we all need the same attriubutes in our resources and at the same level so if meat with high oq/pe/fl is in spawn we all want it and we all want as mucha s we can get, which leads to ever increasing prices.
Which leads me on to the idea I had.
If any of you have done the FS medic quests you'll know what I'm talking about.
Right now the only way to make tissues is to get the best resource and experiment to max, now to me, thats not very interesting, or Bioengineery.
Now what if instead of *however many tissue schematics we have* we had just 1 for each type.
Ie. 1 generic casual enhancement, 1 combat, 1 for each of the 3 chef addatives.
So then I would take my generic casual clothing enhancer and say for example I wanted to make an entertainer tissue, I would use some really crappy resources and experiment as close to 20% as I could without going over it, and I would have a really good entertainer tissue and it didnt cost an arm and a leg, then say I wanted to make a healing tissue, then I would use really good resources and the ones in between I would use combinations of mediocre resources.
If there were like 5 tissues for each then each +1% would be a +1 bonus and when you got to multiples of 20 it would change to a different bonus.
Would also be nice if the experimentation was based purely off DR or something, ie a more durable substance stand up to genetic alteration better or something.
Pros:
You dont have to be MBE to make something saleble, low level BE's would be able to make the less popular tissues with the flipside being they'd have to use better resources than a master to do so.
The less popular tissues are easier and cheaper to make and the more popular tissues would still be *rare* or at least more expensive.
More interactive and intellectual process of crafting, takes more skill than buying lots of good resources and maxing experiments.
BE's get more of the coolest crafting in the game
Less competing with other professions over HQ resources.
Cons:
Thats your job not mine, I'm off to have more beer
Just as a warning, I've had a few cans, and i've been talking to DocSavag, so blame him if I'm talking drivel lol
So I was thinking about tissues and resources and stuff like that.
As I see it the biggest problems we have with our organic resources are: resources that suck to get and competing with chefs and docs for resources.
Now the reason we compete is cos we all need the same attriubutes in our resources and at the same level so if meat with high oq/pe/fl is in spawn we all want it and we all want as mucha s we can get, which leads to ever increasing prices.
Which leads me on to the idea I had.
If any of you have done the FS medic quests you'll know what I'm talking about.
Right now the only way to make tissues is to get the best resource and experiment to max, now to me, thats not very interesting, or Bioengineery.
Now what if instead of *however many tissue schematics we have* we had just 1 for each type.
Ie. 1 generic casual enhancement, 1 combat, 1 for each of the 3 chef addatives.
So then I would take my generic casual clothing enhancer and say for example I wanted to make an entertainer tissue, I would use some really crappy resources and experiment as close to 20% as I could without going over it, and I would have a really good entertainer tissue and it didnt cost an arm and a leg, then say I wanted to make a healing tissue, then I would use really good resources and the ones in between I would use combinations of mediocre resources.
If there were like 5 tissues for each then each +1% would be a +1 bonus and when you got to multiples of 20 it would change to a different bonus.
Would also be nice if the experimentation was based purely off DR or something, ie a more durable substance stand up to genetic alteration better or something.
Pros:
You dont have to be MBE to make something saleble, low level BE's would be able to make the less popular tissues with the flipside being they'd have to use better resources than a master to do so.
The less popular tissues are easier and cheaper to make and the more popular tissues would still be *rare* or at least more expensive.
More interactive and intellectual process of crafting, takes more skill than buying lots of good resources and maxing experiments.
BE's get more of the coolest crafting in the game
Less competing with other professions over HQ resources.
Cons:
Thats your job not mine, I'm off to have more beer
Zadokk
Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:09 pm
#2
Sounds like a good idea to me. One of the main problems for non-masters is that the tissues they make are virtually worthless because even with perfect ingredients, you would struggle to reach +86 BSNs and thus cutting themselves out of half the market. Pets are alright for low level BEs because there will always be a non-ch market.I like this idea. Good work 
NancyJ
Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:11 pm
#3
/bounce
...and you kno0w I really did do a happy little bounce then.... I really need to get out more.
...and you kno0w I really did do a happy little bounce then.... I really need to get out more.
GryphonsRose
Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:46 pm
#4
Well... it sounds good... cept what you are trying to get away from (competing over resources) still exists but is only shifted to whatever that high end 80%-100% item happens to be.
Perhaps a shift in the stat's needed. What I mean is sort of organizing what the different professions need:Doc's would by and large need PE and OQ. Chef's (and chef tissues) would need FL and PE. BE's could need OQ and FL. That way, if something that spawns with great OQ, decent PE and sub par FL it would be good for Docs but chef's and BE's wouldnt be attempting to hoard it.
This would, at least I think it would, increase the range of materials needed for those three professions.
NancyJ
Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:12 pm
#5
GryphonsRose wrote:Well... it sounds good... cept what you are trying to get away from (competing over resources) still exists but is only shifted to whatever that high end 80%-100% item happens to be.Perhaps a shift in the stat's needed. What I mean is sort of organizing what the different professions need:Doc's would by and large need PE and OQ. Chef's (and chef tissues) would need FL and PE. BE's could need OQ and FL. That way, if something that spawns with great OQ, decent PE and sub par FL it would be good for Docs but chef's and BE's wouldnt be attempting to hoard it.This would, at least I think it would, increase the range of materials needed for those three professions.
I put that in too, about us not wanting to have OQ or PE cos their too much in demand by chefs and docs
but even if we still had to compete we wouldnt need HQ for ALL our schematics
Numen
Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:34 pm
#6
NancyJ wrote:
Less competing with other professions over HQ resources.
To me I've never been competing over HQ resources when something is inshift. On an auction for out of shift resources then yes I would agree with you. Many professions can be bidding on the same resources.
For inshift resources though I seem to be competeing with other professions for the hunters time.
As a hunter if I could make 1 million in 2 hours havesting X for the first profession and 300k in 2 hours harvesting Y for the 2nd profession, I think its fairly obvious which one I would go for. I'll compare bone and meat. I'll pay very little for bone because there really is only one stat that matters to me. Meat on the otherhand has 3-4 stats. I don't expect a hunter to gather bone for me for 50% of my meat price though.
I'm all for new options in crafting, but as long as our quantity needs still exist I don't see the price going down. Its supply and demand at its best. The lack of supply isn't because of low supplies of meat. There is an infinite amount of meat to collect. The lack of supply comes from the lack of harvestors to get that infinite supply of meat. That is where the devs can help out.
NancyJ
Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:41 pm
#7
Theres not alway something good for particular profession in shift, thats were needing different attributes helps us. We can pay for the hunters time when theres something good in shift for us and not for other professions that might offer more money.
If we all need the same resources, ofcourse they're going to get it because they can offer more money.
If we all need the same resources, ofcourse they're going to get it because they can offer more money.
ArthurDentOnBria
Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:30 pm
#9
Hmm, I've re-read this three times and I'm still not sure I "get it". I haven't done the FS quests, so maybe that's the problem. Are you saying that these should work like weapon powerups, and that at certain experimental percentages itkind of morphs the product into a differentvariations of theproduct? 0-10% it's a myoflex, 11-20% it's a coagulent... 90-100% it's a bio sensor type of thing?
If so that is interesting, but I'm not really sure it solves any of our problems.
At a high level, I thinkour problem is simple: we make products we can't use ourselves, and the people that use them (ok, lets be more specific: chefs)are able, by hook or by crook, to make them themselves in the vast majority of cases, thus driving down the price to completely artificially low levels.
I see 3 "band-aides" that could be put on this problem to improve it:
1) Put a stop to the schematic trading. I still think there is no legit justification for this in the game, and all it does is kill component makers.
2) Create a new type of factory that is unique to bio engineers. We would make our stuff in a "bio factory" rather than a "food factory".
3) Like Nancy said, the ingredients we need to create tissues, and the attributes needed in those ingredients, overlap what chefs already need to make their goods by nearly 100%. So it's a situation where a chef goes a-harvesting and they simply throw down 4 harvesters on that great patch of wheat rather than 2, and they've got what they need to make tissues that are "good enough". That's easy to fix. BSN would now require, hmm, I dunno, Endorian Domestic Corn, and instead of OQ 50%, PE 30%, FL 20%, make it FL 75%, OQ 15%, PE 10%. (Actually, it's the chefs that should have the 75% FL, but that's another discussion).
But to be honest, all this kinda stuff doesn't really address the underlying problem, and that is that the whole component-for-others idea is a flop that nobody likes. We don't like it, and they sure don't like it. So why have it? The chefs right now are telling the devs that our tissues make too big a contribution to their products. So that stuff that we're busily selling for an artificially low 25k/crate using 40cpu meat to make, ought to be much less effective, thus impossible to justify using, but that's of course the whole point so it's just groovy by them. Ok, fine, I'm cool with that. But what we need is products or our own, that make use of our own components. That would solve the problem. Make it so that we could make, oh, hell, I dunno, a bio interface to a spaceship cockpit(that an end-user couldattach)that would give you new and cool auto-piloting abilities. The bio interface requires BSN, and it's affectiveness is tied to the effectiveness of the BSN. A stupid example, but you get the idea. Problem solved, everyone is happy.
Meplorium
Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:01 pm
#10
I have to aggree with Arthur for onceon the whole not understanding the stuff after the medic quest was brought up. I don't aggree with the schematic trading, too many people asked for that when it wasn't in the game. Also too many ways to exploit like droids or factories. Making all droids non-tradable or not being able to use a factory unless it is on your lots isn't a welcomed change. Those bug fixes that corrected those problems were very welcomed when they were put into the game. I do understand the heart of the non-tradable schematic issue and would even benefit from it since I have a BE alt, but too many people use that for too many other things to justify such a move.
They don't have factories for ships, they won't bother making them for BEs.
As far as the resources are concern, Chefs use all stats and they are used in different areas of the food. I personally find that a good thing as it makes the game challenging. Often there isn't a 'uber' resource to use and you have to pick and choose what resources you use together to balance out the lower stats.
Another point, BE tissues don't need to be all the great. The difference between an 83 and an 87 is very small, so small that 87s isn't worth paying more than an 83. It certainly doesn't affect my food pricing. Given the choice I would go with 87s, but since meat is hard to get, often I don't have that choice and my food turns out just fine and sells just fine when I use 83s.
I do like the idea of uniformed schematics where you make the additive, experiment seeing what attribute of the 4 would be, then in the final window choosing which stat gets used. Another way would be to have the different stats affect the different effects, like DR for filling, ect, and have all 4 lines there to experiment on. You can then experiment up which effect you want to be the most important and carry all 4 enhancements over to the final tissue.
I don't know what the medic quest did. I did the crafting assembly quest. In that quest you had to do a little puzzle to 'tune' the part for use after it was made. You had 10 tries to finish the puzzle before the item decays beyound use. Something similar for experiment would be nice, rather than the standard roll of the dice.
ArthurDentOnBria
Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:18 pm
#11
Lol, now what has that got to do with the price of tea in China?
Oh, and Mel... all it would take is for non-chefs to start trading for food schematics and you'd by singing a different toon.
Meplorium wrote:
They don't have factories for ships, they won't bother making them for BEs.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 10-18-2004 05:24 PM
Meplorium
Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:05 pm
#12
No, not really. There are a lot of chefs out there, so schematics would be easy enough to come by if it were that easy to make the stuff. It isn't though. BTW this would hurt the solo chef and help the BE/Chef combos. I don't need to trade schematics. It would hurt the competition to some extent though, so it would be good for me. However I don't like it and what people do with their schematics isn't my concern. Competition is a good thing as itonly makesme better as I tryto be better to stay in this game. Handycapping people so I can better compete just isn't something I desire. I would rather find better ways of doing things to over come problems than trying to force others to do less.
The price of tea in china, no idea, but if they won't put in a new factory for a full expansion, they won't put one in a minor profession. I am not saying that is a good thing, I am just saying that is how it is. I would ask for flying mounts and BEs able to make them way before I would want a BE only factory.
Your preaching about non-tradable schematics is like me preaching for BE tissues in armor. It isn't going to happen no matter how much sense it may make to the preacher.
LamiaAcerbus
Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:43 am
#13
I have to say I quite like the idea of our tissues and nutrients being experimented on like we do with dna templates. Its gives more variety or the products we use and it is certainly more interesting than just going along the same bar. It would possibly also help chefs/tailors in a little variety too with the option to get various different end results. Although they would probally hate that as they would no longer just be able to buy one product and know what it does, but it might also cut down on the alts creating supplies for their main as they have to spend more time doing one job to suplly another (although it would never be cut out as some people just like to be self sufficeint and there is nothign wrong with that).
I quite like the idea too, that we can take whatever quality meat resources we have and can do magical things with it...aftert all we do specialise in dna and know how to splice this gene with that gene so should be able to use lower quaility to greater advantages. That way we get to not always chase the high end meat that everyone else uses. Lastly I dont think the ship idea is too bad either, perhasps not a cocpit but something to help with a ship as I have a sneaky suspiscion that when JTL is out that one corner of our market may get a little lower and that being pets. I dont think that will ever completely disappear as I love creating and using creatures so there will always be one who wants them, but it would be nice to bring something to JTL too.
Anyways thats my rambliings over while I sit here unwell babbling rubbish that made sense at the time!
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