Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: A FRESH perspective on the 'maskscent-dna sampling issue' for CL60+ critters
Ok, while I can see the point that people don't like having to take secondary skills I have to say that personally we're not in a situation any different than every other profession in that respect. Tailors need scouting skills to get hide themselves and all crafters need survaying (or someone to tell them where to put down a harvester) to get their materials. The difference between bio-engineers and the other profession who need external skills to even operate is that all server's have a very ready market of materials supplied by other people... but there is utterly ZERO dna market.
So I think that rather than moaning about how we can't be 100% independant (cause the fact is that no profession is) we need to instead look at the reasons and problems which are stopping there from being a viable dna trade for all the servers. Once you start seeing dna being sold like any other materials needed for crafting then the whole maskscent issue won't matter cause we'll be on even footing with how other crafting professions operate.
Problem #1. Storage
I'd say this is really where the problem lies, if you owned a large house which has 250 capacity then you could only store enough dna for 50 clones. While that is alot considering how you'd need to create a dna trading market this is totally inadaquet as a solution. Indeed to spend around 170k and use up 6 lots for what is little more than a very large backpack is totally stupid.
the solution? - some form of dna storage container which takes up less space than the total dna within
Problem #2. Trouble reaching your market
Since the bulk of materials tend to come from the bazaar the fact that dna appears as a 'generic item' means it gets throw into a batch of listings full of junk, deeds and other generally useless goods. Because of this many people don't even bother looking for dna since it's in amoung all of that junk. There is also no option for merchants to promote themselves as dna suppliers.
the solution? - just give dna it's own section under the materials or components listings
Problem #3. Dna caps at Master not Sampling 4
The fact that someone needs to master bio-engineer in order to be a dna supplier isn't helpping matters, on the whole there difference between master sampling and lvl4 sampling is significant enough for master bio-engineers to never want to buy from a dna supplier who isn't a master themselves. Ideally the masters should gain a bonus for reliably taking samples however the 'very high quality' dna should actually appear at sampling 4 if there is to be people dabbling in bio-engineer for the sake of selling dna.
the solution? - sampling 4 should give very high quality samples
Problem #4. Not everyone wants to sell DNA, but everyone likes to make money
On the whole the dna trade market isn't going to kick off easily since it currently doesn't exist plus bio-engineers wouldn't be used to buying materials from others when they have always gathered it themselves in the past. Because of that people aren't going to see it as a lucrative means of income. Also the prospect of needing to spend skill points on novice medic, org chem 1 to 4 and then finally bio-engineer and the dna sampling lines might seem a bit too large of a commitment just for the sake of running a very niche market business.
the solution? - one way around this is for artisans to produce a tool to take blood samples or such from animals (a system based on how we take dna with aggro and success rates) so that other professions can get involved without needing to be bio-engineers. The blood samples are then sold to bio-engineers who extract dna from it themselves. Meaning that there isn't exactly a dna trade but rather a blood trade. Since the bio-engineers exact a dna sample from the blood itself the current system could stay in place and you'd simply find rangers and scouts taking blood samples as part of their normal harvesting routien. Again storage is an issue but I covered that already.
A couple quick thoughts on this.
Totally agree about storage. Actually dna storage isn't my biggest problem, it's the storage of all the other crap (hides, meats, flora, bone, ...) that is the real killer. Thie profession is the worst I'm witnessed when it comes to storage requirements.
Until they do something about it, there are a few "tricks" you can use to help yourself with the storage problem.
#1 use the input hopper of your factories. There is actually a lot of storage in there, and it doesn't interfere with your factory runs, so you can use that space to store stuff.
#2 use droids when out in the field. You can have up to 3 droids, each of which can have 10 item storage compartments. This is almost the equivalent of an extra backpack.
#3 use banks - you can store a bunch of items in "your bank". While this is the least convenient of the storage spaces, since it's likely to be quite a distance from your workshop, it does allow you to dump some stuff you use infrequently.
As far as the DNA-selling market, maybe those ideas would work, but it just seems like all creature resource stuff (bone, meat, hide, fish, egg) is so time consuming to gather that there seem to be so few people willing to do it at any price. I imagine dna would be the same only much worse since the only profession you'd be able to sell to is BE and we're a very small target market. If I were a ranger right now interested in making money on my profession I'd much rather be getting hide for example. I could sell that to architects, tailors, chefs, and probably others, whereas with the blood thingy you're kind of stuck if you can't find a BE to sell it to.
Tal, I agree with you. Everyone ought to be able to customize their own character. I have way too much to do to do anything well. Perhaps in someways I am a perfectionist. If I can not achieve 12k ham on a Gurreck and approach 600 damage and .33 to hit, I melt it down and try again. BE's have more to do than anyone can do well.
I wish a person could do any 4 tier box and choose not to do others. I would love to have some ranger skills.. ya right, I gave up 2 tiers of boxes in scout.
A BE can do nothing well till they can do everything well. And unfortunately, since they get there using macros, they may still not know anything.
Inventory? Ug. I restrict myself to one bag of 50 on "good meat" and one bag of 50 "crummy" meat. It is difficult to keep these from running over. For the life of me, I can not understand why the game does not allow us to Meat grind the crummy stuff into one crummy stack. And since they are shifting all items every week, you just end up with endless stacks of stuff.
DNA? Yes, I can hit 100 DNA and not have an adequate selection to cover all needs. 4 stacks of Lokian WW, 4 stacks of Fiberplast. 12 stacks of hide, 12 stacks of bone and wood. 4 stacks of CLass 4 Liquid... sheesh.. The game is really obsessed with piles. I would not even mind combineing 3 stacks of the crummier CLass 4 liquid to equal to the crummiest present.
If I were a ranger right now interested in making money on my profession I'd much rather be getting hide for example. I could sell that to architects, tailors, chefs, and probably others, whereas with the blood thingy you're kind of stuck if you can't find a BE to sell it to.
This is more a case of simply increasing the price to match the market, if you're focussed at a very narrow trade then you increase your prices ot match that. Also it takes a hell of alot of effort to gather meat/hide/bone as you need to kill creatures which isn't something rangers are designed for. They're actually designed to avoid trouble than to face it. Thus given the choice between a broad market of animal resources which is alot of effort or taking blood samples to sell to a very select market the ranger is designed more for the latter.
Unless you put a solution of "Give another class DNA sampling ability" I won't even bother reading this.
Your argument of other classes needing secondary skills is fallacious because other players outside of their profession can provide this service.
And I've had decent success with ExpIV and some clothing.... so ranger right now isn't a requirement.
I made it to ranger line. I liked the find direction of critters. That real handy. I have gotten to attempt samples from CL 70 of course didn't beacuse they capped out. I wear a +26 masked scent and camo outfit of pants and shirt. I find it hard to even get with rangers in my PA at times and places I am though it does happen. I rather not waist ther time pointing me to critters. I maybe take back up skill to get direction.
As for sampling DNA as a market skill. For me even selling pets is like right space right time thing while others post they can sell 5 rancors a day or whatever. If these was to be marketed they be like every other inflated price I see posted. +900 stats DNA be if nothing else Bazzar cap of 3k but can see it selling on vendors for a insane amount. Yes for the most part I am gather everything I need myself. I do get help from friends at times on meats since I can't fight my way out of a papper bag without my pets.
Masked scent. SInce I wear tissues in it. It shows 100+.... What the deal with that? Not a clue if I do get the extra effect. I do have camo now of 26 though <shrugs> Even Docs not buying the stat tissues since they say also they 100 so whats the point. But that is another talk.
Do I find having even the basic rnger skill good? I need it tested with others that are not and see if they can put a enraged rancor on follow and pet it. Kinda hard geting people to raise hands for the test. Would I buy others DNA? Not for the prices I sure they ask for. DO I like to make credits? Sure but I allready have plenty. Do I like getting my own DNA? Yeap, its a thrill of a hunt and the head shaking from friends when I say splattered again. If they ever do change clone line like they said where DNA template can be for any critter wiil this help storage or marketing? Yes. The seller can combine the stats to a template that is say level 50 and market that. That woulkd mean a house with the 250 limit would then have 250 critters in it. That can help marketing. Selling the DNA templates. Those who not want to go after the meats and the veggies can still then still be in criter market.
Actually in reguards to pricing I think that the 1000-3000c range for dna is just about right. I mean when you look at it you're seeing a far higher cash turn around than anything else. You might kill a rancor for around 200 units of meat. Now unless you sell that for 10c per unit you're not gonna even get close to the 3000c cap on the bazaar. Given at how it takes a huge amount of effort to take down a single rancor then you're actually gonna see alot more in the 'time:cash ratio' from selling dna samples or blood samples on the bazaar for around 2000-3000c each. In the space of around 2 minutes a ranger who takes some blood samples in a similar way to dna sampling would make around 10k which isn't bad really.
"the solution? - one way around this is for artisans to produce a tool to take blood samples or such from animals (a system based on how we take dna with aggro and success rates) so that other professions can get involved without needing to be bio-engineers. The blood samples are then sold to bio-engineers who extract dna from it themselves. Meaning that there isn't exactly a dna trade but rather a blood trade. Since the bio-engineers exact a dna sample from the blood itself the current system could stay in place and you'd simply find rangers and scouts taking blood samples as part of their normal harvesting routien. Again storage is an issue but I covered that already." - Tal-N
Agreed. I feel this would offer a good balance between giveing Ranger Scouts a clear and usefull advantage in DNA sampling without completely crippling BE's without
With respect Tal-N, I really don't see how giving another class the ability to gain samples for us to buy from them as much in the way of help to the BE profession.
If they make it so that only a Ranger/BE has a decent shot at making a good cloned creature, I'd just as soon give up being BE entirely. If they make it so I must "buy" DNA in some form or fashion to be able to stay in the BE business, I don't see how I gain anything from that, other than spending even more of my credits on others, and to be blunt, the best cash in BE is not in anything that requires DNA in the first place, it's in the tissue line, with pet stims being by far the best generator of credits, and even the bonus stat stuff doing OK.
I've made a fair living as a BE, and for what it's worth, I've never sold even ONE gurreck. If I never sell one, that's more than fine by me, I'll be more than happy to make lower level creatures, where I feel confident my Level 4 explorer MS will be enough to allow me to get all the DNA I need for these creations. It won't bother me in the slightest, if only a Master BE, with Ranger skills is what it takes to make the best Gurreck or Rancor, since the market on these is terrible in comparison anyhow. Even if they eventually add the ability for us to make "custom" animals with special skills to our likeing, I can't see a need for me to get higher MS ability than I have now, since ONLY the highest levels of our creatures would benefit from the higher CL DNA (the rest would be past the cap where it helps anyhow).
Just my opinions, and nothing more...
Vorgus on Bria
If they make it so that only a Ranger/BE has a decent shot at making a good cloned creature, I'd just as soon give up being BE entirely.
That's why i proposed the alternate 'blood sample' method where a ranger without any BE skills gathers a blood sample and thenthe bio-engineer then extracts a dna sample (or several) from it without ever leaving the lab. Since there is no risk of aggro you'd never get more than around 2 or 3 samples at the most from the blood even at a master level but it does solve the percived problem that ranger/BEs have a significant advantage over non-rangers in our ranks.
Your missing my point Tal-N
My point is, if I Master BE, I SHOULDN'T need any outside "help" for my profession.
It's just as viable, that a profession to "help" us, should be Commando, with them dragging back a nicely cooked carcass for me to sample from. Or DE, with them whipping out a special DNA sucking microDroid, to go over and attach itself to the critter, and grab us a sample.
While I'm at this subject, it could just as easily be a Smuggler that should be the ones to help us out (assuming we should need help in the first place) after all, they could get that sample, and fiegn death on the mob, then sneak away after it left. How about CH while I'm at it? They can get a pet Gnort, to go up and take a swing at a Krayt Dragon, surely they can convince a mob to let me jab it with a needle a few times.
My point being, if I didn't make it very clear with my examples, is that while having Ranger skills would be a valuable asset to a Master BE, it is by no means the only "logical" choice for another profession to grab samples for us. I personally don't think we should NEED another profession to do part of our job for us, if it becomes a problem for us to get our own DNA, then it's the BE profession that should get things added to it, to make it more viable for US to do it, not give the skill to another profession. There have been several good suggestions in this forum, for things that could be added to OUR profession, to make this easier, I personally like the idea of a "tranqualizer grenade" myself, but in any case, I don't want us dependant on yet another "outside" profession for our livelyhood. It's already bad enough that our biggest clients, can get along just fine without us (CH).
Vorgus on Bria
i beleive DNA sampling 4 shoud get VGQ samples and AAQ samples should be taken from masters. good post Tal.
original thread about a DNA storage device - a lot of good posts about how it could be developed:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=bio-engineer&message.id=15640&highlight=DNA+storage#M15640
My point is, if I Master BE, I SHOULDN'T need any outside "help" for my profession.
I'm not getting back into this debate again cause it's been covered so many times, just take a step back and look at the game as a whole. EVERY profession out there operates better with external help so we shouldn't be any different. I'll leave it at that.