Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Evaluation of the dna sampling cap and why it appears to be lower than intended
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Tal-N
Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:16 am
#1
For a while now I have often wondered just what the deal was with the dna sampling stopping at CL75, i
mean it's such an odd figure since there is very little that used or did fall between that rating and
CL60. We know only of around 5 species which do actually fill that catagory, the Mutant Rancor (which is
very common), the Bull Rancor (also very common), the Arachne Queen (quite rare), the Barkmite Burrower
Queen (also quite rare) and finally the Reclusive Cavern Spider Queen of which there is only one kind in
existance at the bottom of the dunegon on Dathomir. Naturally there's the likes of the Nightsister Bull
Rancor but that is essentially just a Bull Rancor with slighly modified stats. So out of what seems to
be well over 1000 different species we're left with a meager 5 which can be used to make clones in the
CL60 to CL70 range. Is this by design or is this a bug which wasn't intended but we have come to accept?
The first place to start is with the explainations why the cap might exist, things the developers might
say are the motivations behind this cap.
THE CAP IS THERE TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO PRODUCE POWERFUL CH PETS
This excuse would of course be total and utter nonsense, Mutant and Bull Rancor are so common that they
This excuse would of course be total and utter nonsense, Mutant and Bull Rancor are so common that they
have a cave you can go to on Dathomir not to mention an entire region which spawns nothing but Rancor.
Indeed the fact is that if you ask any bio-engineer master they'll tell you that the hardest thing to
make is a non-ch pet which is right at the other end of the scale. And yet there are a wide variaty of
species which allow us to make them. So ultimately this excuse would not work.
THE CAP EXISTED TO PREVENT OVERPOWERED CL60+ PETS
This excuse might seem valid, we're producing pets that are extemely specialized and able to fight far
This excuse might seem valid, we're producing pets that are extemely specialized and able to fight far
above their intended level in certain circimstances. Indeed the fact we're limited to a genepool of 5
species is leading to very little in the way of diveristy. But the thing is that there is no such thing
as an 'overpowered' pet, the ones that are become invalid now. The CL rating system that they designed
is supposed to give an accurate representation of the CL, thus while they might be raw kinetic tanks
they would be weak everywhere else. Also with the artifical kinetic resist cap at 60% making an
overpowered kinetic tank is impossible.
So what other excuses could there be, well I thought about this a great deal and I can't find anything
which might be used as an excuse. SO here's an evaluation of what I think we should ask to be changed,
to make it a little easier to play around with CL50-70 clones so that they are actually a challange and
can be quite varied.
But lets start my observation at why I think we're already supposed to be able to sample from CL100
critters but a bug is stopping us.
First of all we know that dna sampling sits at +75 when you're at Dna sampling 4, ay Master this jumps
to +100. It seems odd that these values exist as raw figures especially when most other professions find
a direct correlation between skills and results. Having +50 maskscent actually allows you to make
reliable maskscent checks against CL50 critters for example. The stats for weapon speed skills relation
to actual times. Again and again we see many instances of values having a direct connection to something
tangible. I think that the +100 stands a high chance of meaning we should have been able to sample from
CL100 critters but some bug is causing it to behave like a BE Master only has Dna sampling 4 with a cap
of +75 which is why we're seeing a CL75 cap. Further evidence which supports this concept is that
someone with a maxed maskscent can actually find they're able to get relible maskscent checks against a
CL100 critter, at CL120 things become a bit unreliable admittedly. But what is the purpose of rangers
and master scouts having protection which allows them to do past creatures like this? They can't milk
them, their lairs don't have anything very valuable.. infact when most people see a CL100+ critter it's
huge so they stay well away. So what is the point of the CL100 maskscent? Well the answer is simple,
bio-engineers find it very valuable. Before this patch the only way to get Kimogila samples was to be a
master ranger or a scout. So if there are skills that allow someone to approach them what is the point
in no profession currently getting any benefit from that.
But there is still MORE evidence that it seems we should be allowed to sample from CL100 critters. Just
look at these old dna samples taken before the patch that I still had, these screenies were taken on
Friday 13th.
http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=40206
The Enraged Rancor is CL80, the Enraged Dune Kimogila the Peko Albatross are both CL100+. The thing to
note is that despite the fact we have a cap at CL75 the dna easily accomidates samples that fall under
CL100. the Enraged Rancor as you see has stats peaking around 900 with a typical average around 750-800.
This trend continues for other dna, you often see a CL50 animal with stats around the 600 mark at the
most and around 450-500 as an average. Following this trend through a CL100 critter would peak at 1100
at the most and typically be around 900-1000 as an average. We know that the dna is capable of
accomidating stats that exceed 1000 points too, you see it all the time with the dependability stat.
Medium armor appears to kick in at 1000 fortitude, that would make perfect since as light armor kicks in
at 500 because medium armor is twice as tough again as light.
So to summerize there is alot to support the fact it appears we SHOULD have originally been allowed to
sample from CL100, the fact the skill mod for dna 4 is at +75 and the fact we currently have a cap of
CL75, the evidence that maskscent works up to CL100 with ease and yet there is apparently no purpose for
it to do that and finally the fact the dna at CL80 isn't even anywhere near the 1000 limit there
currently is suggesting it was originally intended to allow for far higher stats. All of this points to
one thing, under the new system we are experiencing a bug which caps us incorrectly at CL75. A bug we
thought was a feature but is infact a mistake.
But would increasing us to the originally intended CL100 make any difference?
Ultimately yes, it's better than being stuck with the limbo figure of 75 because there are a number of
mobs which fall between that 75-100 window. Just skimming through the SWGcreatures.com archive you have
the following:
Ancient Bull Rancor - CL98
Enraged Bull rancor - CL80
Enraged rancor - CL80
Female Malkloc plainswalker - CL81
Kimogila - CL95
Malkloc plainswalker - CL84
Enraged Bull rancor - CL80
Enraged rancor - CL80
Female Malkloc plainswalker - CL81
Kimogila - CL95
Malkloc plainswalker - CL84
So that already more than DOUBLES the variety possible when making CL60+ clones just by adding another
+25 to our cap which looks from multiple peices of evidence should have been there to begin with.
Now of course increasing the dna means that it's possible to go over that viable CL70 cap that Creature
handlers have, but that isn't really a problem as we'll be able to recycle that dna anyway if the cap is
restored to what it was originally intended to be anyway. A bio-engineer master should have enough
expeience of playing the game and making clones by now to realise that if he throws together CL30 dna
with CL100 dna then he stands a high chance of getting an untamable clone. However throwing together
chuba dna with CL100 dna it'll end up around CL55-60. It's just a case of common sense really and
certainly not any worse than the currently invalid non-ch pets that people are still able to make and
have no idea of they're invalid either.
But why have any cap at all?
This is where I was leading.. there is no reasonable answer for the devs to deny us the ability to
sample from any species we want. We get no harvesting rights, we get no loot, maskscent falls apart
around CL120 anyway, the dna has a high probability of making a clone a CH cannot use, medium armor
requires fortitude over 1000 so it'll be as good as impossible for a usable clone to be made with medium
armor plus on top of all that. CL100+ critters are fairly rare anyway. But what will it add to the game
the devs might say. Well the BE is really the alternate of the CH, we get a thrill from making uniques
and I bet many of the players here would probably like the idea of gathering dna from rare species just
for a personal collection so they can say.."I did it". So removing the cap completely adds an additional
incentive to play the game, it adds fun while not creating any unbalances at all or opening a tin of
worms which causes a mess.
So I'd like Talthazar to help support this concept as I invite the community to as well, at the very
least I hope people agree that our cap looks like it should have been CL100 anyway. So at the very least
we'd like that corrected, but ideally we would like the dna sampling cap removed all together since
there is literally no reason for it to exist plus removing it opens up the possibility for more fun as
bio-engineers can collect rare and valuable dna from the most powerful creatures in the galaxy.
Message Edited by Tal-N on 02-14-2004 05:18 PM
Ranugad
Sat Feb 14, 2004 10:52 am
#2
I've been breaking my back getting close to Ancient Rancors, then after 20+ attempts at sampling, I turn to the message boards only to discover that they cant be sampled from. If thats the case, then fine, I wont complain. Although, it would be nice to do so.
I'm going to read your post over again, butat first glance, it seems very well thought out and offers a balanced view.
RonninOtnemem
Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:07 pm
#3
Fantastic deductive reasoning, Tal-N!
I completely agree that we should should be able to sample DNA from the creatures in the 75-100 CL range.
All of your questions and inquiries point back to one thing:
WE NEED DOCUMENTATION ON HOW THIS WHOLE SYSTEM IS SUPPOSED TO WORK. (Hint, hint DEVS)
Merendel
Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:12 pm
#4
Q droped a hint that an advanced BE guild is slated for a friday feature but its unclear when. could be a couple months.
Ordlander
Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:31 pm
#5
Well thought out. All I have to say is what I can hear as a DEV response? There a cap on DNA? Never heard of it. Working as intended. Then they go behind doors and ask. what are they talking about anyway?
Yosho_Tarien
Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:06 pm
#6
can a be with dna4 sample as well as a master? if so, then it probably is a bug. though i know the quality isn't as good. i haven't tried mutant rancors myself, and don't plan to in the near future. but maybe it would help if a master and a field scientist compare success rates with the rancors? if it comes out the same then we can be pretty sure that it is a bug.
i don't see a reason for the cap either, unless the devs just have a problem with giant creatures falling over because of a pinprick, but we get that anyway, and with the high probability of agro it's not like it's a free ride there.
(edited because i found another word the filter didn't like)
Message Edited by Yosho_Tarien on 02-14-2004 03:08 PM
Tal-N
Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:49 pm
#7
Someone with dna 4 can get mutant rancor samples but it's less reliable than what a master can do. The only difference is that a master can get very high samples which is related to the increased success rate. I'd say since the masters can get mutant rancor samples around 1/3 of the time the folks with dna 4 are getting them around 1/6 of the time. Not impossible but still difficult.
Shivash
Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:57 pm
#8
Actually, as a 3/2/4/4 BE I've never been able to top sampling CL55(havn't tried the CL56 Merek harvester though, only CL55 and CL60 critters). Which implies that rather than getting 100% of the Sampling setting we're getting 75% of it. i.e. at +100 we get CL75 and at DNA 4 we get 55(well 56.25).
Having said that I agree that I see no reason not to allow us up to CL100
.
Having said that I agree that I see no reason not to allow us up to CL100
.
Tal-N
Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:37 am
#9
It's possible that we're not getting the full amount that the stat implies. I have seen people with dna 4 getting CL60+ samples fairly easily though, it's just a matter of finding enough mobs of that rating and sampling your butt off
meroc
Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:01 am
#10
With all the other caps in game, a sampling cap just doesn't make sense. Even if we do make a CL70+ creature, no one can use it except as a statue in a PA hall.
The only thing I can think of that the Devs may have an issue about is, if we can sample up to CL 100,it may allow us to make pets with medium armour, but even that may have an artificial cap on it...
Tal-N
Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:06 am
#11
Well as i said it looks like to get medium armour you need fortitude at 1000. if thats true then I'd imagine it would be nearly impossible to make a tamable pet with medium armor. Keeping all of those other stats low enough to allow for 1000 fortitude would take a fantastic number of generations to pull off and I doubt that someone could lower a CL100 animal to CL70 and still keep it high enough.
ArthurDentOnBria
Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:13 pm
#12
I agree, and I'd like to see this as well. I think one huge problem that a BE faces right now when trying to make a CL 70 pet is that there really isn't much opportunity to customize it. If you want CL 70, and CL 70-like damage and offensive capabilities, you are pretty much stuck with accepting the rancor specials and resists. Allowing us to sample higher level creatures would allow us much more freedom in trading off damage, specials, resists and so forth.
What I'd really like to see though is more creatures in the CL 65-80 range. I think that would benefit the game in so many ways. Right now if you have a group of 3-4 people or greater, with elite combat skills, there really isn't that much that is challenging even on a planet like Dathomir.
Anarrion
Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:14 pm
#13
I definitely would like to see the Sampling limit either extended to 100 or removed altogether. If the success rate doesn't change, how much can this hurt? Sometimes I'll fail a dozen ormore times in a row sampling Mutant Rancors. Copying and pasting:
Ancient Bull Rancor - CL98
Enraged Bull rancor - CL80
Enraged rancor - CL80
Female Malkloc plainswalker - CL81
Kimogila - CL95
Malkloc plainswalker - CL84
Enraged Bull rancor - CL80
Enraged rancor - CL80
Female Malkloc plainswalker - CL81
Kimogila - CL95
Malkloc plainswalker - CL84
If successfully sampling the CL80-81 creatures is even harder then successfully sampling MRs, and if getting a sample from a Kimoglia or Ancient Bull Rancor is extremely difficult, then the extra credits one could get from making CL 70 and lower pets with these samples would be well worth the effort. Such pets would, of course, have to have trade offs compared to what we can currently make. Want a pet with a larger Health Pool? You will have to give upsome Damage. Want more Damage? Give up some HAM.
In return for allowing BEs to have greater challenges and more fun, SOE would have to give up very little. How much can it hurt the game or other professionsto give us this?
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