Bio Engineer Archive

Thread: Invalid Pet Questions & Theories

Wekai
Fri May 14, 2004 4:05 pm
#1


First off, sorry for dragging out a topic that's been discussed in great detail in a lot of places by much more knowledgable folks than myself.

I don't have any experience withinvalid pets, but I'm developing a sort of academic fascination with it. It seems like it would be very easy to fix, as the correct CL calculation is being done at some point. Or, at least, the devs could choose to be consistent in their choice of a singleCL calculation.


Funny question occurred to me while thinking about this and reading the tail-end of the correspondent post:


Has anyone ever had a pet PASS all pet checks until the animal hits full growth, then fail it at 10/10 levels, for example? This would apply only to newly crafted pets, BTW...


To clarify:

Does the invalid check occurONLY when the creature is in a partial growth state? i.e. 2/10, 6/10, etc...


And the kicker:

If your pet fails the CL check while growing, have you tried leaving it in the datapad until full grown? When full grown, does it still fail its validity check? When I last had CH skills, your pets would grow in the pad, but grow faster if you took them out... Hopefully they still grow while idle... I ask this because I can imagine a lot of angry folks dumping invalid pets, or readjusting them. I don't know if anyone has tried waiting it out.


I guess the point of my questions is obvious, here. It seems that there's 3 times the CL can be calculated: on initial combine, at validity check, and when resetting the level of your pet. It would make sense to use the same code at all times - programmers prefer to avoid duplicating code and this would be a function that should logically be written once and used whenever needed.


If your pet is fully grown and is declared invalid, then the function for determining the CL on the initial combine is not the same as that used in the pet checks or the CL reset. The good news is that the fix for this is easy -a copy\paste\recompile if you're lazy. This shouldn't be impossible to do, at all. Not even difficult, as the code already exists.


If your pet was partly grown and failed a check, but was valid at full growth (I realize this is wishful thinking, because someone would have tried it by now), then the validity check is the problem. I can imagine that a well-made BE pet would have wildly varying stats. For one thing, a wide variation in H/A/M would be unusual for a tamed pet. If the CL calculation is complicated, linear growth in the pet's stats (at 2/10, 4/10, etc..) combined with varying resists & armor wouldn't necessarily mean that the calculated CL of the growing pet would match up at every step. The fix here would be easy, too - validate the pet based on the full-growth stats and level, not the partial stats (which appears to be happening now).

The good news here would be that there's a workaround - let your pet grow until finished, then pull it. At the very least, recalculating the CL should give you a closer level than doing so when your pet is half-grown.


Thanks for your time and sorry if I'm just blathering =)

obeewan
Wed May 19, 2004 4:23 am
#2

It' isn't only upon taming it turns invalid, and it is not just CL10's, it could take a day, week, or three months to go <invalid>



Aesop Pecan
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CLOSED~(-3947,-772) Corellia, Tyrena Starport
NancyJ
Wed May 19, 2004 4:35 am
#3

Hi, I know this issue is important to all of us and it will be addressed when TH posts his 19 answers, I could try going through the process of getting permission to tell you a little more of what I know but I think (hope) that the answers will be posted sooner - from what I've seen I think it will be today or tomorrow.
So for now if we can just concentrate on reproducing invalid pets we'll be part of the way towards solving the problem.
If you know of a combination that is valid when tamed but becomes invalid at some point in its growth, it would be useful to know the formula and at what point in its growth it becomes invalid.




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Akelan
Wed May 19, 2004 2:01 pm
#4

The problem with that, NancyJ, is that "addressed" means anything from "we're working on a hotfix that will be out in 2 or 3 months" to "the pet checks are working as intended" - we don't have a clue, and little reason for confidence given the historical evidence to take that as much hope that this will be resolved.


I feel like more hope lies with the community's efforts to better understand the system as it exists than to holdexpectations that it will be effectively resolved in the very near future by development efforts diverted from the much vaunted new Jedi system to address this issue.


In answer to the original poster - the pet check is supposed to catch those creatures that exceed some criterion for acceptable levels of stats and abilities in relation to their defined CL. It seems to hit hardest on the low level pets, because they have the tightest restrictions, but it is either exceptionally inconsistant or dramaticly misunderstood. The pet check is supposed to be, as it is currently implemented, executed when the player attempts to call the pet from the datapad, or at taming. The pets stats are checked against some unrevealed criterion, and the pet is either acceptable, or the player is offered the choice of altering the stats to fit the level, or the level to fit the stats. In the case of the Non-CH pet, this is not a simple lowering to a maximum acceptable level, but a drop to a pet quite incapable of providing anything more than entertainment in return for a mind-bar. As the non-creature handler is limited to two stored, one active at a time for pets, it in most cases means the end of the pet, as the "slot" is worth more to a pet-using player than the creature now residing in their datapad.


The issue most BE's seem to have with the pet check is not that we do not recognize or accept that there should be a reasonable limit to the pets a non-CH can control. The pet check seems to nerf many, indeed most, of the pets we would expect to be reasonable, and allows some real "monsters" to continue to be usable. This has forced many of the BEs into a painful choice - make pets we do not think are reasonable, because they are the only thing that consistantly works, or stop making pets for the non-CH user completely, as our efforts at anything else are so often wasted.


The issue of leaving a pet in the datapad until full grown has been investigated, as has leaving a "nerfed" or "adjusted" pet in the datapad. The end result is, once "modified" by the pet check, the pet never regains its original stats or utility. Some pets that have had their levels raised make reasonable CH pets, but the majority are not, and the player and the BE that created the pet are both left holding a now-empty bag.


It's probably the single most difficult issue to abide in the profession at present, though there are other things in need of tuning as well, and it has probably resulted in more damage to the profession and the player base than anything else which affects BE crafting, in terms of its effect on the expectations of the player as pet customer, and the BE's mounting frustration with the issue driving some to forsake the profession entirely, and casting a malaise at best over the most resilient of us.


LLan


NancyJ
Wed May 19, 2004 2:05 pm
#5

So you're saying that you wouldnt be happy if the answer is that they are aware of the problem and are working on fixing it?
What exactly are you expecting TH to say? What answer can they give that would be acceptable to you?




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Akelan
Wed May 19, 2004 7:07 pm
#6

To be honest, there are a few possible answers that would fit the need, Nancy. First, that they are implementing the "pet check" at the time of pet creation, which is where, if anywhere, it belongs. That would resolve the issue of pets going invalid at a random point, and allow us to sell pets once again that were and would remain the CL that the deed indicates. I think that would make the vast majority of the Be community much more satisified.


The second possibility is that they have tightened up the code on the pet check, so that it is very consistant, and it is applied at the FIRST tame or call of the pet. Again, that would probably satisfy the majority of the community, and allow us to get a realistic feel for what we can make and sell reliably.


To say that they are "aware of the problem and working on it" says no more than they have to date, to be honest, and does not give any timeframe or surcease from the issue. They are "aware" of many problems, and undoubtedly intend to fix them all, but the simple fact that it is their intention offers no real answer to the effect this is having, and little to ameliorate the expectations which are quickly becoming fixed in the player community's mindset; many players have never experienced any other environment in game other than the high-capability non-CH pet, and that expectation will be the most difficult thing to adjust as it continues to be the working fact, no matter the stated intention to the contrary.


What I am afraid of is precisely the answer you suggested - they are aware of the problem and are working on fixiing it. That answer is as applicable a year from now as it is today, and will not change the situation we are in now, but it becomes less possible to effectively discuss the problem, because "they're working on it" already. Anything which does not give us either a proposed or targeted date for resolving the problem, or a specific announcement of a change in the implementation of the pet check that resolves the issues it currently creates will be too little to make a difference.


I'm not looking for promises. I am looking for specific action, target dates for a fix, policies and actual, in-practice, effective steps to resolving the problem. I don't doubt their intentions to resolve this fairly and appropriately. I wonder if there will be a BE profession worth fixing if they don't do it expediently.


Hopefully this is clear enough to help you make them understand at least one BE's concern, which I do feel is representative of the community. It's not a personal response to your question,though I do address you by way of answering it, Nancy, nor criticism of your asking it. It is, I hope, enough of an explanation of what I see as our real need to make it understood to them.


Llan

NancyJ
Wed May 19, 2004 10:18 pm
#7

I really wish I could tell you guys what I know

What I can say is that TH is still catching up post E3 and he's trying to refine the list of answers so that everyone is happy - and thats a big job, as well as his other duties.
What I'm trying to do is get a little more information on specifics for our answer that will hopefully better explain the situation - how the pet check system is currently working and whats going wrong.




Nyria's BioShop
-51 -5732 Tatooine
200m South of Anchorhead


Nyria - Farstar



shargus
Thu May 20, 2004 5:34 pm
#8

An understandable sentiment, we all wish someone would tell us straight once and for all. Unfortunately in my case this type of response causes more frustration than i felt before.
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