Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: FACTORYS HAVE BETTER UNIONS!!!!devs please look
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TreasureChest
Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:31 am
#1
Not sure where to post this but since I did this with a BE I figured this was a good place to start.
Thanks to the blue frogs on TC I ran a lil experiment to check out something that has been bugging me.
First I made a Master DOC/BE and a Master Merch with other account for storage reasons.
Then I got a boat load ofthe sameresources and went about doing two things:
1) Make One schem for BSN's and do a factory run.
2) make nothing but BSN's(non-experimented) by hand.
I set up10 food/chem tools and did3 basic macros then I got my twinkies and ALOT of coffee andmade 3000 BSN's (most all the same power and less than 100 crits the whole time) In a7 hour session ( my fingers will never be the same) and that includes dropping them into backpacks and trading with my other toon. The factory still running the first run.....
I then deleted (skillwise) the DOC/BE and made a master Chef.
I then took the 3000 BSN's and made them all Medium Food Adds ( and ONLY 1 crit!!!) this only took5 hours... and the factory still running...
Nearing insanity I log off and play with baby and take a long bath and get some sleep. the next morning I log on and check the statis of the factory.... still running
So I do it all over.... yes over again.(Yes I have no life, that and Hubby Took over kids duty this weekend to give mommy a break.)
This time I did it in pratice mode and just grinded them out did over 4500 of them (10 hours) before I went blind and lost my finger tip due to being worn away ( just kidding hun) looked at factory.... 38 of 40 made only 2 creates togo.
So to conclude my lil experiment here I went thru a box of twinkies 3 pots of coffee and made:
7500 BSN's
3000 Medium Food Adds
and the factory made 1 schem of 1000 BSN's ( fourty creates)
Figuring the time I took off for rest, Potty breaks, etc... the factory had about 6 hours of prduction time more than I did.. and yet produced less than 10% of what I did.. do we see a problem with this?
Are creates that hard to make?
Do the factorys have better Union reps then I have......?
Does anyone else see a problem here? ( other than I was stupid enough to do this?)
Suggestion Increase the Factory production rate to a more believeable rate our SWG factorys run so slow that its nuts.. the Cotten Gin ran approx 6 times faster than a human could work and it was hand cranked.. unlike our SWG Factorys which run approx 90% slower (being nice on that number) than PC.
This being done I do not recomend doing this my hand but if you do get a Intel mouse for the Dbl click option, make the Macro longer then 6 seconds for your sanity sake and (sucking up on) thank your Hubby for giving you the needed time off and being such a wonder man (Sucking up off).
Treasure/Gem/Betti/Darlin... Valcyn
LloydPickering
Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:35 am
#2
Hmmm...That is some comittment. 
It does illustrate an interesting point...thatour runs take 3-4 days to make 40 crates, where we can create the equivalent in a MUCH shorter time span. The only reason we actually use the factories, other than they are active while we are not playing, is so thatthey can be usedin a schematic at the other endby Chefs.
All I can really say is /tiphat.
Funnily enough though, I don't think that the devs will give thisany thought as they recently actually INCREASED factory times to be in line with the complexity of the schematic.
(Also, it takes about half the time to make Medium Aditives than it does Medium Nutrients.)
tbh though, I am much more concerned about the issues directly relating to the BE profession, not to all crafters. We seem to be forgotten or left out at every step. Eggs from Creature Recycler, DNA Sampling from patch 12.1 ("Sampling from mounts" only works with Artisan Sampling. I'd have thought it easier to stick a needle in a critters hide from a mount rather than take resources from under the ground on a mount...but thats the logic of someone [fairly] sane)
Halthron
Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:54 am
#3
It just means that factories are staffed by people from 3rd world countries. At least I don't have to pay an "administration fee" (bribe) to turn the darn thing on.
Kivrin
Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:41 am
#4
Wow. That is some serious dedication to the cause. Thumbs up from me.
Although I'd like them to be a little faster, the convenience of the factory running while I'm sleeping or doing other in-game things as well putting the items in crates is worth that loss in productivity to me.
Although I'd like them to be a little faster, the convenience of the factory running while I'm sleeping or doing other in-game things as well putting the items in crates is worth that loss in productivity to me.
cf3d
Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:12 am
#6
I think this test was really good and reallythorough. My only question for you would to be this. You were basing you test off of 1 factory against 10 crafting tools. So, what you need to really test, since you already know how long it takes to make them by hand we will skip that part and save your finger tips, but create a schematic for 300 BSN's and place it in the factory and start it up.
1. Does the factory complete the 300 in 7 hours?
2. If not, how many does it make in a 7 hour period?
Next stage of test is to create 10 schematics of 300 BSN's and place them in 10 factories. Start them up and go back 7 hours from the time that you start the last factory.
1. Does the factories complete the 3000 BSNs in 7 hours?
2. If not, how many do the 10 factories make in a 7 hour period?
Now, you said that the factory had about 6 hours more production time than you did for 1000 units. Let's check this out.
In 7 hours you can craft 300 items from 1 tool.
In 13 hours the factory can craft 1000 items from 1 factory.
So by that we will take your units and double them so :
In14 hours of work you can do 600 items from 1 tool.
In 13 hours the factory can craft 1000 items from 1 factory.
Now, by going off what you have calculated with your test (I know I wouldn't be able to sit there for 7 hours) and what you said the factory took to make them a full run, I can only assume by the ways listed above that the factory in fact is much faster than crafting them by 1 tool.
So the only way to really test this is to do the steps highlighted in bold above and see if the 10 factories can craft 3000 items in 7 hours.
Wished I could help with this, but I'm not on TC... lol... but you do bring up interesting information.
P.S. 5*'s for you
Message Edited by cf3d on 01-26-2005 06:16 AM
Message Edited by cf3d on 01-26-2005 06:17 AM
Ikooga
Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:33 am
#7
I posted the following on the chef forum already, copying it here to the original thread.
its just not a good comparission though.
1st) you used 10 crafting tools, therefor effictively making 10 BSNs at the same time. A factory has to wait till one is finished before starting the next.
2nd) you didn't experiment the BSN. If you would have experimented them for 86% or so, then I doubt you could have gotten this amount. For factories you only experiment once and then you are done.
3rd) You start factories once and then you can do something else. The longer time is the price you pay for that. Beside it creates all with the same serial number and makes crates, a lot better to handle.
It sure was a lot of work and all, but doesn't prove your point.
its just not a good comparission though.
1st) you used 10 crafting tools, therefor effictively making 10 BSNs at the same time. A factory has to wait till one is finished before starting the next.
2nd) you didn't experiment the BSN. If you would have experimented them for 86% or so, then I doubt you could have gotten this amount. For factories you only experiment once and then you are done.
3rd) You start factories once and then you can do something else. The longer time is the price you pay for that. Beside it creates all with the same serial number and makes crates, a lot better to handle.
It sure was a lot of work and all, but doesn't prove your point.
Magincia
Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:04 am
#8
I have read all the responses.. but the issue is that even if you exp on the single item and make it up... it take under 60 sec to make. Take the same level of experimentation to a schm and place it into the factory and poof now it takes 170+ secs to make one item. So it takes 3 times as long to make an item in factory crate form with the same serial number..... (Talking about BSNs NB 84-87)
It does seem a little unfair. But I am not complaining to hard....
At least in theory with the new patch the factories won't go poof... after notice of 12% left on it (and no other warnings)... now it will be condemed... at least in theory... hmmmm need have this verified... don't want to lose all my pet stim ingredients ( 1 run of each Adv med comp, and all the organics and a a running schm of pet stim Ds 39 / 1550+) -- I cried for 2 days... not the way to start the new year..... HMMM I am rambling off topic... Sorry.....
ArthurDentOnBria
Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:28 pm
#9
This has been known for a long time. Actually, there isn't much need for such an elaborate test. The factory will tell you how long it is taking to craft each item, as does the crafting tool. In both cases it is based on the complexity of the item being crafted. So for example if you craft things in practice mode, and don't expirement, then the things you craft will have lower complexity and will be made faster then if you experiment (and I'm not even talking about the time it actually takes you *to* experiment). This is the way crafting works in this game.
There are two issues here, the first is "realism" (or immersion), the other is game-balance. Your point about it being unrealistic to have a factory that runs less efficiently then a single crafter, hand-crafting an item by hand is a good one. Point taken, that is undoubtedly true. Of course there would be two ways to "fix" this. One way to "fix" this would be to slow down hand crafting by a big amount (I'm assuming you don't want that right?). The other would be to speed up factories.
ButI think thatmuch much more important than some small amount of realism or "immersion" that would be gained by getting the factory-to-hand-crafting ratio right, is what this would mean to game balance. If you speed up factories, what effect does that have on the game? Well, more products would be produced in less time. Is that good or bad? It probably depends on the product, and in fact this can be handled on a product-by-product basis by tweaking the complexity value of each products. In fact, the complexity of our tissues managed to make our issues list, but few bio engineers felt it was important enough to make their top 10 list. In general though, I think "their" perception of the prospect of speeding up factories across the board is that it would be a very bad thing. The reason is the possibility of monopolies. In general, there are a lot of things in the game (storage, factory speed, harvester speed) that limit one's production, and that of course is done purposefully. The idea of course is that no one person should be able to supply an entire server population with goods, and the more different people that are needed to supply a certain type of good, the more it encourages "healthy competition".
Anyhow, I've rambled on more than I wanted to also, but I guess my main points are:
1)game balance overrides immersion in this case
2)if a big deal is made of the factory-to-hand production ratios, be careful what you ask for, because the solution could be something extremely undesirable (i.e slowing down hand-crafting).
3) if we feel there is a particular problem with the rate of production with a particular product, we can perhaps get the complexity of that item changed (if we have a very good case for such a change being made).
Binger83
Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:20 am
#10
wow... that is how to get burnt out on swg. have to commend you for the time you took to point out this problem though. never really thought about... also, factories did not run the time the server was down yesterday, if that is added into your equation. (1/25).
TreasureChest
Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:24 am
#11
Some of these responces got me to thinking, Granted I am Housewife/Mommy of 2.5 kids (24 weeks preggers) and dont know alot about real world manufacturing (sp?), so I spoke to my neighbor whom does know alot about Mass production, She was telling me that Todays Automatic/mated Computers Factorys ( she did something or other with Dell production, gave a long title but she said it means she made sure the factorys ran the best they could) run about seventy(70) times faster than the human could do the same job with less than 1/100,000th of a margin of error.
After the system information has been put in (a finished Schem)all the different factory systems and they start it up its a matter of just watching it just and checking the finished product ( basicaly speaking this is cut down from a 2 hourconversation) QA stuff althought she never did tell me what QA stood for, I assume its Quality something or other.
Now as we know making a INN (Inteligentnanonutriant) takes about 85-90 seconds (including Experimenting and finishing product tool time) to make one [{non macro and doing the dbl click on the resources no short cuts} with shortcuts knock that down 6 seconds which is about a hour off end time]. At that rate it would take 15 hours to make One thousand(1000) of them by hand
Afactory takes 232 seconds (thats 3min 52sec folks) per INN to make. At that rate it would/does take 38 hours 30min and some odd seconds to make one thousand(1000) to make with a factory. (unbalanced abit?)
Now I understand it could be worse, they could jack up the time with tools.. make the factorys even SLOWER... they could do many things, but I do thinnk and beleive that making the factory time a bit more fair would be nice. Some folks dont do mass Production.
Some of us do the Love of making a better critter, mixing the dna to see what we can come up with ( Ever do the booty dance when you get the combo you were trying for... or is that just me?).
Some of us do the mass production selling to chefs that sit there andcomplaine about the price ( we use more of the Best resources for the better food additivethan they do on ANY of there foods hmmmm).
I understand that we like DE's (although they get more loving) seem to be the Bast*rd children of this game(err what was our last bit of DEV love we got?) and that THIS one problem effects the whole universe and could collaps the structure of the game mass maheim would take place cats and dogs shacking up together we are talking total destruction of the entire fabric of life itself...... Just cause this on lil BE who sits in the far corner of Tat waiting ona factory run of my wonderful food adds... and thinking to herself " man I could do this faster by hand... *sigh*...."
We as a class have many diffrent Issues that we would like to see fixed... none IMO is any more importain than the other due to each problem means more or less to each of us.... this one is my pet peve casue it not only effects my BE but it effected mewhile I was a arch.. chef...ws...Art... de.. I love the crafts..what can I say =)
but hey, I could be wrong 
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