Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Armor/Resist Relationship
Your error here is using the Kamurith DNA, which yields those results because of some bug in the DNA having "hidden" resists.
I have seen physique experimentation effect other templates slightly, but its not a common occurence except with the Noc Kam DNA
Form Lethe
Radiant
Master BE,Master CH, Novice Ranger
Interesting that Armor Effectiveness is approximately Fortitude/10. I added it to my notepad. But, I think your equation:
Ar2 = ar1 + 50%effectiveness
is wrong. You should multiply, not add. You were right the first time, I think,in that Medium Armor is equivalent to 75% Effectiveness for all types of damage. In my opinion, if Kinetic wasn't limited to 60%, then having 75% Effectivenessacross the board would bejust as good as Medium Armor with no additional Effectiveness or Special Protections. Having Medium Armor plus Special Protections would, of course, be really great.
Also, I would like to point out that having Fortitude of 500 is pretty much the same as No Armor and 49% Effectiveness across the board (just a 2% difference). So, there is nothing great about crossing that border in either direction, unless you have Special Protections that aren't changing with Fortitude/Armor change. So, the difference between 47% Effectiveness across the board and 49% Effectivenss across the board is twice as much as the difference between 49%/No Armor and 0%/Light Armor. Keep in mind, of course, that Light Armor gives 50% Effectiveness to all types of damage, except those to which the target is Vulnerable.
Yeah, technically medium armor is like adding 75% to everything. I mean you take the 50% from the initial damage, then 50% from the result. If thats 100 points of damage then it drops to 50 and then 25 which is exactly 75% of the original value. The fact is though for that to actually be tested you need to have a wild mob which is a high enough level with evens resistances to everything like the snapper, defiler or deaths head and watch what happens as the fortitude rises. But frankly anything with light armor AND 74% to everything is going to be far above CL100. One thing you do see though is that all the old CL100+ dna actually has the stats stuck at 1000 and they have medium so I'd say there's a minimum CL cap for medium like the CL10 cap for light armor.
Your error here is using the Kamurith DNA, which yields those results because of some bug in the DNA having "hidden" resists.
No the karimuth dna has no "hidden resists" What i do think is bugged is the abnormally low cl it gives. Experimenting on the physique only alters the effectiveness resists.It does not change special resists. Thats why you usually dont see every stat rise when you experiment. Ar1 = 50% all resists. So the karimuth instead of saying ar1 and 0% all resists (which happen to be the effectiveness resists) is the same as giving in no armor and 50%all resists. Now if you dont experiment to the 500 mark fortitude then the effectiveness resists wontreset and go down to 0.
The reason only a few resists will alter is that most creatures have only a few effectiveness resists. Some dont have any. But the Effectiveness resists will always follow this pattern. So the karimuth has no hidden resists. Its just following the rules of the system.
Ok i figured out why the resists sometimes jump when you make the clone itself. The effectiveness resists on the dna template only show in multiples of 5. They wont show up as having 36 resists but the fortitude/10 still works.
If the fortitude on the dna template is 370 then the template will show effectiveness resists with 35%. However on the clone you will get an extra 2% giveing 37%. Likewise if the fortitude is 499 then the template shows 45 but the actual on the clone is 49. This works for armored samples too. Fortitude of 536 is ar1 with 0 effectiveness on the template and ar1 3 effectivenss on the clone.
So the final clone isnt just given extra resists out of nowhere the problem lies in the tamplate not displaying the rsists as acurately as possible.
Nice observation. 
Shuffling thru a few of my papers this looks pretty good. I'll have to crank it thru my database to see if it holds for more than these few cases I looked at. Those resists jumping by 1 or 2 or 3 really bugged me.
When you examine a creature it shows you the resists but it breaks them down into 2 different categories special and effectiveness. If you make a clone with 5 of the same type of creature it will have the same special resists but the effectiveness resists will vary. Also i noted that when you experiment on the physique the effectiveness resists will change a bit. And if ar1 is achieved(fortitude is 500 or more) then the effectiveness resists are reduced to 0. Also in the final clone the effectiveness resists are increased by about 1 - 3. However the special reists are constant throughout the whole process.
This led me to belive that effectiveness resists and armor are both directly tied to fortitude. I did some experimenting. I was messing around with some karimuth snappers and nocuous karimuths. Snappers have 30% effectiveness all resists. Their fortitudes are always in the low 300's. When i made a clone out of only snapper dna the first combine had 20% all resists. The fortitude was low 200s didnt write it down. I put 1 experiment point in physical. The fortitude jumped to low 300s. All resists were 30%. I did it agian. Got fort. in the high 300s and resists were 35. After a few more tried with snapper dna and others like it i determined that fortitude directly controls te value of the effectiveness resists. However the dna used determines which resists are effectiveness resists.
Look at the fortitude and round down to the nearest 50. I.E. 378 becomes 350 and 129 becomes 100. Divide that by 10 and you have your effectiveness resists value. This is always true in reverse also. A snapper who has 30% effectiveness has between 300 and 349 always. Its usually toward the lower end though.
Now Armor changes things. Light armor absorbs 50% of all damage. So it is basically equivelent to 50% all resists. When the effectiveness reaches the 50% mark(500 fortitude) it changes into ar1. This explains the strange resist on the nocuous karimuths (although i still think the cl is bugged). When you combine 5 nocuous karimuths the first combine has a fort. of about 300 or so. Thus 30% effectiveness. Now what the examine windw doesnt show is that the initial effectivess of the karimuth is 0%. That is why no resists show. It never shows resists of 0%. Now after experimenting on physique the fort. rises to 400-449 bracket and the resists will be 40%. And if you can get the fort to the 450-499 bracket you get 45 effectiveness, the highest you can have. Because once you hit the 50% effectiveness it drops down to 0 and gives you the ar1.
Now you can still fid the fortitude of creatures with ar1. Just take the effectiveness value of the creature (if none shows then its 0) multiply by 10 and add 500 for the ar1. Thats the bracket for the fortitude. I took it a step further and applied it to my med armor theory. All you need is to hit that limit for med armor and youll have it regardless if a sample had med armor or not. I didnt know what that value was until now. I first though it would be 750 becase ar2 absorbs 75% of damage. Equal to 75% all resists. But this didnt work because mutant rancor samples have in the 750 fortitudes and only ar1. But i was looking at it wrong.
Ar1 = 50%effectiveness = 500 fortitude. Ar2 actually takes half the damage ar1 takes. In equation form it looks like this Ar2 = ar1 + 50%effectiveness. Ar1 is 500 and 50% effectiveness if 500 so the value to hit for ar2 is 1000 fortitude. No easy task however.
The only thing thats a little strange is clones with non even effectivenesses. Like it will have an effectivess of 42%. Im thinking the bracket for that may be 420-470 fortitude but not sure. Ill do some more testing on that.
Bravo there LoakG, I didn't notice the why the added different amounts. I did try this kinda of thing with kahmurrith snapper dna. Now they have no armor but are 30% to everything. Now here's the wierd thing, the snappers are CL44. Logic says if you stick in 5 samples and actually experiment things then you'd end up with something higher than CL44. Wrong, it was CL24. Yet I'm sure all of us have taken 5 mutant rancor samples and experimented on only the HAM and end up with something around CL77... shortly followed by about as much cursing as possible since you can't resample from it plus you just wasted an hour of standing around possibly some of the nastiest things on Dathomir.
But essentially it does show that there's not only a generic flaw with the system but also one that is made more or less obvious by certain animals' dna. Now if only it was possible to figure out why 44+44+44+44+44 = 24...
Have you verified this using say, Mountain Squill DNA? The DNA your using has enough "issues" that I'd be cautious about any results you get from it.
Talth mentioned that Kel (the dev) has said the karimuth DNA has hidden resists, so if you can redo this with Mountain Squill it'd be interesting to hear the result.