Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: A special note about the new CL system (very important for BEs)
Ok here's another one, CL40 Merek Cavern Creeper....
- 40% kinetic
- 30% energy / blast / stun / restraint / heat / acid / electricity
- vulnerable to cold
- 11000 HAM
so again I'll work with the concept of 400-450 quota.. unless this prove to be higher in which case I'll need to re-evaluate the calculation rules. This will be done with acid being worth x2 as it worked with the Spitting Rawl.
- 40x3
- 30x3
- (30x1)5
- 30x2
- -10
- total = 410
...hmmm... now as expected this has 11k HAM almost dot on. It's also almost dot on the resistance quota so this is a very very good example of the calculations working. So does this mean because the Sand crawler is rare that it's allowed to break the rules? Or is there more here than meets the eye? It's probably worth checking another critter with two invulnerabilities to see if there's something to do with that feature.
question what determins if the creature you make gets armor or not?
loomis001 wrote:
question what determins if the creature you make gets armor or not?
The DNA used. Exactly how isn't clear, but it is clear that resists (armor is part of the resists system) transfer over from the dna.
Right, the Bordok Mare. It used to be CL50 when it was called the Aggrevated Bordok mare so I dunno if they changed it or not. Someone will have to confirm this. Anyway, it's got two invulnerabilities still...
- 30% kinetic
- 100% heat / cold
- 20% blast / restraint / electricity
- vulnerable to energy / stun / acid
- 10'000 HAM (yeah this looks worrying)
.. well for starters that lower HAM than it should be is worrying. It should be around 13k if its still CL50 
anyway... remember this should be around 500-550 for it's quota.
- 30x3
- 100x2
- 20x3
- -30
- -10
- -20
- total = 290
... now this the 10k HAM is indicitive of a CL30 critter, and naturally this total seems to look like the quota assigned for a CL30 critter. Since I have no way to check the CL rating for this animal on the TC I'm hoping that someone can let me know what it's current at so I can figure out if this system breaks down past CL40 or if that Sand crawler is something of an oddity.
Any assistance will be most welcome, I'll drop things here until I can raise enough cash on the TC to head for Dathomir to compare with the rancor and such thats there.
Well, I'm not sure we should be making this an absolute assumption. If a CL 30 creature has higher resists than normal it has to come from somewhere - damage or ham.
Ictus wrote:
My math is horrible, soI don't follow. Could you explain the system so I have a better idea of what your talking about? Sounds like the beginnings of a formula to figure out clvl and resists, but I am alittle lost
Yeah sorry it's a little abstract since it's not really nitty gritty math. No doubt the actual calculations are more exact but this is more like a simple way of looking at how it's working as long as you use simple rules.
It's really a multi-step process. There two main calculations which are little more than a means to check the CL rating based on the end results, however because you can check you can also work backwards to figure out the CL rating. The first step is the easist way to find the CL rating, thats the HAM calculation. You take the CL rating, mutiply by 200 than add a fixed bonus based on the CL rating.
CL10 adds no bonus. CL20 adds +1000 to the HAM. CL30 adds +2000. CL40 adds +3000 and so on. The reason for doing it this way is that the second a critter is given light armor they lose this bonus. Allow me to give you an example. Lets say you gave a CL37 critter...
37x200 = 7400, then cause it's CL37 you add +2000 or if you want to be more exact you add +2700.
This brings you to an estimated HAM of 9400 or if you want it more exact, 10100. Now that is without armor, if this CL37 critter has armor then it loses that added bonus HAM and will have roughly 7400 HAM. Check this yourself with theMantigrue Screecher, we know it's CL55 and has light armor and on the TC it's around 12000 HAM. So you do 55x200 and the end result is 11000. But because you sometimes have a slight discrepancy you need to move onto the second calculation.. thats the one for the resistances and general protection.
Now this is where I'm still trying to settle the rules, since a CL rating is part HAM and part protection theres no point with one half working so well while the other is a bit unreliable. Currently I'm working on the basis that resistances all have a point value and that for every CL the critter is allowed a certain quota of points to spend on resistances. If it overspends then it needs to lower it's HAM, if it underspends then the HAM can be increased. In the case of the Mantigrue Screecher it looks like it didn't spend all of it's points so it was able to raise it's HAM a bit. A CL55 critter should get around 550 to 600 points to spend on resistances. Things like kinetic and energy resistance are very costly since they are very common damage types, something like acid is a special kind of damage which is reasonably rare but it looks like the devs want it to be a special kind of damage designed to overcome armor and protection so its more valuable. Things like heat, blast, restraint (thats traps i think) and such damage types are all fairly uncommon so they aren't as valuable resistances.
Basically when I work this out I take the resistance to a certain damage type and add a multiplier based on how valuable that protection is. Energy and kinetic increase its costby x3. Acid by x2 and everything else is x1.
That means 30% protection to kinetic and energyis worth 90 points, 30% to acid is worth 60 points and 30% to others is 30 points. However armor also seems to cost points too, judging from what I've seen it's around 75 to 100 points just for light armor.
If you apply this to the Mantigrue screecher which is CL55 you should come out with a total of points lower than550 which is theminimum a CL55 critter is typically allowed.
- M. Screecher stats
- 35% kinetic & energy (210 points)
- 10% blast (10 points)
- 10% stun (10 points)
- 10% restraint (10 points)
- 10% heat (10 points)
- 10% cold (10 points)
- 10% acid (20 points)
- vulnerable to electricity (-10 points)
..now in the case of vulnerabilities it's hard to know how the devs classify it. Typically i assign a base value of -10 for vulnerabilities. Thus if something is energy vulnerable thats -10 becomes -30 because of the x3 multiplier. But anyway if we total up the stats from the Screecher they come to... 270 ... however the screecher also has light armor so that adds another 100 points to the cost making it .. 370. This means that technically the screecher is only using 370/550 of its points, a difference of 180 points which is actually a very significant amount. One thing I noted today though is that the less vulnerable a critter the lower their quota gets. We've seen that having utterly no vulnerabilities can mean you lose another 100 points on average almost as if you 'purchased' armor twice. There the possibility that by having one vulnerability only means that 80 points was spent on that all around protection. Several times we have seen an almost 100 point conversion to 1000 HAM especially since there seems to be a bonus added anyway for every +10 challange ratings, but only in the CL20+ region.
But anyway since we cannot account exactly for that extra 180 points just yet this is why I say the system needs more investigation, but given the fact the critters from the CL15 to CL40 can be very accurately predicted with these calculations there is hope that my assumptions that greater all around protection costs more are correct. It would also make sense from a gameplay point of view as well.
It even works in reverse, look at the HAM, devide by 200 so it gives you a number. This should be a ballpark figure for the CL rating, then tally up the resistance points to see if they match what you'd expect the CL rating to be. CL20 has 200 points to spend, CL30 has 300 to spend, CL40 has 400 and so on...
Think I follow. Could the unaccounted pnts be attributed to either damage or specials? I am not sure what it is now on test, but current creatures of the same clvl have some different ranges for damage.
Talthazar wrote:
now this the 10k HAM is indicitive of a CL30 critter,
Well, I'm not sure we should be making this an absolute assumption. If a CL 30 creature has higher resists than normal it has to come from somewhere - damage or ham.
Yeah i know, i also have another bordok mare where the HAM is 8800 as a maximum oddly enough so they have the full range of 8841-10117 if not more so. The point is though that they peak at 10k which is typical for a CL30ish critter. The point calculations for the resistances come to 290 which is not far from the 300-350 quota I'd expect from a CL30 critter which is just under it's minimum quota and pushing it's stats into the HAM, so while it has invulnerabilities it's not actually spending more than it should, they're just focussed on less important damage types and making itself vulnerable to a very common damage type, namely energy.
(30x200)+2000 comes to the roughly what I saw as the lower end Bordok male. The fact they could spend another 50 points would make sense that they can get a boost of around 500-800 but not at how they can hit the 10k mark which is why I need someone to check the TC and let me know what the CL for the Bordok Mare is. If it is around CL30 and not CL50 then I know I'm on the right track with these calulation estimates. If not then I need to go back and revise them completely.
Ictus wrote:
Think I follow. Could the unaccounted pnts be attributed to either damage or specials? I am not sure what it is now on test, but current creatures of the same clvl have some different ranges for damage.
The damage is certainly something to take into consideration, special attacks from what I've seen aren't making the kind of broad changes found with resistances or the HAM. But since only a master Ranger is able to see the damage range for an animal it's not something which you can actually measure. Since the HAMs themselves have a range then they might be proportional to the damage range as well. Higher HAM = lower damage ect..
It's not something I'd even be able to check when this goes live as I'm not a master ranger.
Oh btw, I applied this system to the Cu Pa which appears on Talths site as an example of the cloning system. The total for the resistances comes to 77 of an estimated total of 130 minimum for a CL13 critter, the HAM when reverse calculated comes to 15.9 so lets say CL16 for the sake of argument. That means that not only is the resistances in line with what you expect using my calculations but your seeing as expected an increase to the HAM because the resistances are under the quotaplus it's a little bit higher than a wild CL13 critter.
I love it when a plan comes together This would appear to indicate that the action bar is correct and it's the health and mind that are wrong.
The huurton listed is also correct according to the estimates. The Rancor is actually around CL23 which means it's significantly lower than the CL35 minimum, while the resistances are 104 of a potential 200. Since the Famba should be around CL30 I don't know if that means there's something odd with going under the specified CL or if the samples from the famba were poor quality leading to degraded stats, either that or it was some really really crappy materials used to make the clone