Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Players should not have to goto out of game sources to learn how to play
Its one of theproblems with MMRPGs today, that players have to goto outside sources other than the game or manual to learn how to play certain aspects of the game. I think those of us that read and post to the forums regularly tend to forget that many people don't check all the websites or forums for information on the game they are playing. I am guilty myself. Yesterday somebody offered to buy my Arachne Webmaster, I am thinking why would some one offer me insane amout of pixel credits for something thats going to be seriously nerfed in a few weeks. They didn't know, and stupid good guy I am turned them down and explained about the nerf, but it got me thinking.
I don't like the clone system and really don't like the new system, to me its vague, cumbersome, and abit too much voodoo. I have to agree with Raruk, too many effects are being controlled by a single template to have a good idea what your going to get as a final outcome. Maybe some more templates should be added to control things like armor and specials. The clone system in SWG is probably the most difficult and vague crafting system in the game, if it wasn't for the forums I would be lost espically with whats on test currently. I am happy about the changes, just not so excited about how its being implimented and the fact that Talthazar and the others on test are having to decode the whole system for scratch for those of that read the forums will know what we are doing. Remember, alot of people don't read the forums.
On a lighter note: My great BE idea, DNA storage containers, basically a bag that can onlyhold DNA samples but only counts as 1 unit in your storage. Seriously, how big can a DNA sample really be
Well it's a case where any large scale game shouldn't allow everything to be understood within the game without alof of playing around. A case in point is the Zelda games and a very good point is the Ocarina of Time (one of my all time favourite games even now), it's just a case where some games are designed for you to need to play around to discover how stuff works and where things are. It's that sense of exploration which is enjoyable.. however I'd say a simple design rule is that developers should give us a good enough hint as to know there is not only something to discover but also give us some idea of how it's accomplished.
No, but it took around8 months for people to figure out that the biggest fish that could be caught was the Hyrule Loach 
Took the world severalmonths to find all 100 skulltula locations and even to this day... people still have utterly no idea if they can beat the Running man at his own game.
Well, I heartily agree with this statement. I haved played EQ, DAC, TSO and now SWG and Beta'd 3 of the 4 and Always have to read forums to find out anything substantial or significant about the game play. So far, SWG is the worst about giving appropriate 'beginner' info to newbies or oldbies, as it were. I think alot of players aren't bothering with Fansites so much anymore, either.
But, it really isn't right for certainplayers to spend all their time Finding out info for all the thousands of other players to be able to function in these games.
I'm Master Scout, N. CH 1,1,0,1, N. Ranger, N. BE. I am on the BE boards because BE is, IMHO, one of the most omonious professions we have. I know how to /sampledna is about it. I haven't a clue as to what affects what or why, how to obtain certain components, or even what certain aspects--i.e. Tissues--are or can be used for. I had no clue you could use them in clothing or making clothing. I don't even know what milk and eggs is used for, lol. BUT I KNOW for certain they are VERY important and needed, hehe. I hear how we cannot get them.
I am very intrigued by the BE profession and would like to persue it. But boy do I feel dumb!!! ha I will continue to soak up all the info you players that are being so incredibly great about providing will continue to provide and totally appreciate it. Kudos to you
I had the idea of Mastering CH and BE-----what was I thinking???????? lol One never stays the same and the other I cannot figure out !!! And all I wanted to do was have animals, rofl.
Ok, well, that's all for me
Cherbaca, Bria, M.Scout, N.CH, N.R, N.BE
People have been going to outside sources for game info since even before the first issue of Nintento Power in the 80's. If you dumbed everything down, you'd lose a lot of people in the long run... this is a game meant to be played a long time, not something you figure out quickly and dispose.
Back when this game had only been out a month or so, myself and my 'mentor' BE (Lemy the Wookiee, remember him?) met up and started our own prodding and stretching of the BE cloning system. We were able to figure out most everything that was posted on these boards on our own while in-game, without consulting any help guides or searching for others to decipher the madness for us. We greatly enjoyed it... logging on each night and expirimenting was something we enjoyed thoroughly. The great majority of what we shared with each other was "hey, I learned this and that from doing this and that", instead of "the forums said this, I would have never found that out".Had this wierd and quite vague cloning system been simple and basic, we would have never had fun unravelling the mystery.
To cut it short, sometimes vague complexity is what people enjoy in games. Imagine Final Fantasy games that are simple and straightforward. One of the reasons SWG is such a popular game is because of it's wide variety of complexity - you can log on to shoot holes in giant rats, search out randomly spawning superior resources with numerous stats to make that one incredible suit of armor you've been dreaming of. Something for everyone... even the seemingly needlessly complex. Many of us are BE's for this very reason .
One thing that make me nautious about this game is that a person can Master this profession, without having a clue on how to do the simplest of tasks within the profession.
In RL, you don't master anything till you know how to do it.
I really can't understand why the game does not require you to master anything, to move up. It badly cheapens the accomplishment.
I remember when I went through the training levels of Warcraft II. At each level, you had to master a new skill to move to the next level.
In RL, this would be the equivelent of going to a Medical Doctor and him not knowing what aspirin is used for.
The questions I get in game are embarrassing.
Tal you didntcatch my meaning.
while every aspect of the game may not be so ovbious, the limitations and rules of the environment in Zelda are made known to the player within the first 10 minutes of gameplay. some vague in-game documentation would save us a lot of time, but right now nobodyon TC reallyknows what to test since nobody but Kel knows how the system is intended to work.
When I started up BE I was just as lost as anyone. But thanks to the boards I was able to muddle my way through it, and now make really successful and good items. Maybe not the best, but they're definately above average cause I take my time and expect perfection. I don't have the complete knowledge about how the crafting system works. I know certain thigns are weighted and look to balance those out. BE, IMHO, isn't ment to be an exact science (like the weaponsmith that someone mentioned in one thread) but rather an art. At least in respectto the creatures we make. Each clone should be something to be proud of. Thus is the nature of our profession, no two DNA samples are ever the same, and I personally think it would be boring if it was. I don't know about y'all, I bought the strat guide for Legend of Zelda, and was very thankful for it. I'm also VERY thankful that Talth and our TC counterparts are providing us with a similar "guide" to this new cloning system. It may not be completely comprehinsive, but then where's the fun in that? We're masters now (or hopefully soon will be) and need the continual challenge...right?
Ka'Mala Mitufu <A-V>
Master Bio Engineer
Wanderhome
To me, it is absolutely essential that a game isn't dumbed down so much that everything is explained in a manual or guide and all you, as the player, do is steer your little toon around following a path. Unfortunately, I think in a lot of places SWG does exactly that, while at the same time obfuscating vital game mechanics and making things needlessly vague. It is entirely possible, as stated above, to master any profession in the game without having any 'skill' whatsoever in that profession, especially the craftering side. At the same time, atm it requires a player to either spend several hours using out of game sources or dozens of hours re-inventing the wheel just to discover basic rules and principles of schematics.
Things like quests and theme parks (content) MUST be vague and require work by the player to be of value. However, basic game mechanics, like what dna slots affect what stats (in the broadest terms) are not too much to ask for. For a start, how can we tell if things aren't working correctly if we don't know how they are supposed to work in the first place? EQ made a similar mistake (that it had largely moved away from by the time I stopped playing) by having all the different recipes for crafted items as a secret that had to be found entirely by hit-or-miss combines (and for several years if they didn't combine you lost the ingredients as well - a horrendous idea when some things took days to get a single example of).
I don't see what the big deal is with developers of MMOs needing to keep game mechanics'secret', I fail to see any benefit from it for either the player or the developer. We don't need to know the complete formula, which I am sure is fairly complex with minor variability built in, but not giving us the basic info required is just petty. Without it, we are not actually bio-engineers at all, but operators of some 'magic box' that mysteriously combines dna samples into templates in a way we do not understand.
Not knowing the exact formula allows for player skill in making creatures. Not giving the basic operating instructions prevents reasonable testing and makes the whole game unnecessarily tiresome and frustrating for the casual player or those that do not wish to use outside sources (as many roleplayers do not). Its not about making the whole game obvious, its about giving the character a reasonable level of information for their skills.