Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Sumo-Stat Formulae Compliation version 2.0
Ya know, something that just occurred to me, do resists only rise with experimentation when there are no vulnerabilities present?
It seems they always rise if you combine 5 samples of creatures with no vulnerabilities like nocious kams or merek death heads.
Not a joke, a merek death head is ar1 and 10% to all, no vulns. WhenI combine 5 dan samples of it resists rise with experimentation across the board, all of them, every time it seems. Even after the 500 mark and ar1. Combine 5 TMB's they never seem to change after initial combine ever. Tried 3 merek harvesters and a couple of matigrue reapers or voritor trackers, resists are locked up tight on combine and all i can do is try to add armor.
I just can't figure what is actually the difference, is it identical resists across the board, lack of vulnerabilities or what that lets al resists be raised on some combines and no others.
I tossed 3 merek deathheads in with 2 other dna's, resists didn't budge.
It's like you either need to use dna with all the same resists and no vulns and experimment, or use the right resist dna to get what resists you want on initial combine and just experiment to give it ar1. And when a couple of "all resists" are tossed in with others you get unpredictable results.
Sumorex wrote:
That is a problem with this system currently. I know exactly what you are talking about, but these formulae will predict the maximum value for those. THey will initially be under-reported on the Template, then climb to the predicted value with experimentation in Physique.
What i haven't been able to explain is the random plusses these same resists get goign from Template to Clone.
These resists are tied up in the whole CL debacle going on with certain combinations of DNA.
Yeah I se wht you mean. It seems to have to do with the formula used for fortitude. The fortitude has the max value from the dna samples used it seems, which once hit will not rise. I tried 5 tybis female samples, fort around 105. I could experiment all resists up until fort hit 105 then it went no further. Ended up with a cl17 10% to all creature.
Seems the higher end creatures like nociosu kams have a very high fortitude, over 500, which leaves a high maximum to experiment to from initial combine. I would bet that the code strips the armor, but due to nocious kams resistsnces being base of zero, it sets CL accordingly for a zero resists no armor creature. Then you have that 500+ max fortitudeto experiement all resists up to with CL not rising as it's set and doesn't rise unless you pass 500 fort and get ar1. Even then not enough.
Still doesn't explain why all creatures resists do not rise with experimentation, some just will not budge even if fort max hasn't been passed. Ive been looking at all sorts of creatures with zero vulnerabilities, haven't found one yet that all resists won't rise until max fort is reached. I've pretty much stuck to creatures with identical resists so far though.
It's starting to look like the issue is kludges in the code to prevent experimenting out vulnerabilities, capping resists, and eliminating armor on initial combines to prevent medium armor pets.
KillerCRS wrote:
Yeah I se wht you mean. It seems to have to do with the formula used for fortitude. The fortitude has the max value from the dna samples used it seems, which once hit will not rise. I tried 5 tybis female samples, fort around 105. I could experiment all resists up until fort hit 105 then it went no further. Ended up with a cl17 10% to all creature.
Seems the higher end creatures like nociosu kams have a very high fortitude, over 500, which leaves a high maximum to experiment to from initial combine. I would bet that the code strips the armor, but due to nocious kams resistsnces being base of zero, it sets CL accordingly for a zero resists no armor creature. Then you have that 500+ max fortitudeto experiement all resists up to with CL not rising as it's set and doesn't rise unless you pass 500 fort and get ar1. Even then not enough.
Still doesn't explain why all creatures resists do not rise with experimentation, some just will not budge even if fort max hasn't been passed. Ive been looking at all sorts of creatures with zero vulnerabilities, haven't found one yet that all resists won't rise until max fort is reached. I've pretty much stuck to creatures with identical resists so far though.
It's starting to look like the issue is kludges in the code to prevent experimenting out vulnerabilities, capping resists, and eliminating armor on initial combines to prevent medium armor pets.
I think some of what you are seeing can be explained by using samples from creatures with across-the-board resists. I never use these, as I believe from reading these forums that these samples are driving the majority of wierd results we are seeing in CL and final resists. I use a whole range of sample from different creatures (mainly from Dath and Dant) and have frequently seen AR1 on initial combine, so that is most definitely not a pre-determined state. Getting fortitude to 500+ will get AR1 every time, either from initial combine or from experimenting. Also, the only resist I have evidence as being capped is kinetic. Energy may be capped - circumstancial evidence indicates so, but I haven't actively tested that. Certainly every other resist I have managed to get to 90 at least and have no reason to suspect they are capped even at that level (i.e. many have also reached 95+).
As I pointed out in another thread, I have yet to see resists rise on experimention on more than 3 or 4 occasions. I have never ever seen the case of all resists rising until fortitude 500 then they reset to zero. I think this is all tied in with the dna samples having across-the-board resist values and the difference between effectiveness and special protection. As Sumo has said several times, a small amount of doumentation from Kel would be greatly appreciated, as its a fine line between interesting investigation and frustrated guesswork. The huge problem atm is that we have no idea how much of the system is working as intended, how much is working but giving unintended results and how much is simply bugged.
Actually I think I found my answer, seems that if a dna sample has a "special protection" instead of an effectiveness in a resists, it will lock that resist on initial combine in whatever category -any- of the samples had a "special protection."
Otherwise resists seem to go up just fine, but reset when light armor is hit. Resists locked with a "special protection" in any sample do not reset at ar1.
In my experience, if the fortitude it very low, the resists don't come through. If you experiment to fortitude 100 - 200, the resists increase tot eh calculated maximums. It seems low fort creatures lose resists. Not exactly the same issue, but it may relate.
I too have seen the increase to low resists on creature combine. only if the stats were very low to begin with. I think it may have to do with teh quality of the template, but I've not messed with the low level stuff enough to know.
Also, frequently I see stunning appear in special 1 in creatures made from dna that had no special 1's
Cross posting my own findings from Mirrl's thread:
- Any "special protection" in any slot will over-write "effectiveness" slots, giving the "effectiveness" slots a protection value of 0.
- Any "vulnerability" will be counted as -100 for that slot. Any negative result after a combine will be counted as a "vulnerability" and will generate a weight of -100 for next generation DNA samples.
- "special protection" slots are locked at the combine value given by the Sumorex formula. They cannot be experimented higher, and will not shift back to 0 when light armor is achieved.
- "effectiveness" slots will start at a value of 0.5 * (resist value) if the clone originally had light armor, 0.5*(50) will be added to this value.
- The maximum protection for an "effectiveness" slot is double the starting value. This can go up via experimentation on the physical slot.
- Experimenting to achieve light armor will cut these "effectiveness" slots back to 0. Further experimenation may raise them to their actual potential.
- "effectiveness" slots may be given a small additional boost on combining the final clone. The range of this boost is unknown, but has been reported to vary from 1-7.
- There may be a special condition when special protection falls below 5%, that it reverts to normal "effectiveness". I've noticed this effect when combining vulnerabilities with special protection in amounts that almost exactly cancel out (+42 and -40). More research is required into this, however.
Good God what have I gotten myself into???
I'm no math whiz, so I've just been looking for things to repeate themselves and try to recreate them on a consistant basis.
One thing that I've noticed is if I place DNA from a creature with light armor into the first two slots (physique and prowess) and then experiment both to above 50% the light armor almost allways kicks in (seems about 8 out of 10 times)
Maybe this will be a starting point for someone smarter than me to find the actuall equation for this.\
P.S has anyone had any success in figuring out the special attack? ie. if I want special attack 1 from creature-A and special attack 2 from creature-B..
Thnaks to Sumorex and Tal-N I think I can add a nasty gotcha to this list. On anyresist where you have donors with effective and donors with special, the resists from effective will be ignored. This is especially nasty because special resists are ignored. For those interested in my data it can be found on
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=bio-engineer&message.id=45460
An example of this is if you were to combine 2 Giant Sand Beetle (20 effective kinetic) in physique and prowess with 3 Dragonet (25 special kinetic) in mental, psychology and aggression, then you end up with a special kinetic resist of 8. [ 40% *0 * 20 + 25% * 0 * 20 + 5% * 25 + 5% * 25 + 25% * 25 = 8.75]
As a rule of thumb do not mix special and effective resist DNA on any resist you care about. If you have a really good reason then limit yourself to 2 samples of the effective DNA and put them in the mental and psychology slots. (This will lead to only a 10% drop in the resist of that attribute)
Ouch, yeah that's the ticket it seems. But knowing it is a good thing. Now if we could just get swgcreatures.com all updated with dna samples....
btw I noticed some creatures in that database listed with vulnerabilities that they do not have. Creatures with zero resist listed as having a vulnerability in that resist. I believe bark mite burrower was one, It has 4 vulnerabilities listed and i believe it has zero vulnerabilities just zero resist in those 4 resists.
Pulled from http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=bio-engineer&message.id=45460
Synopsis: Don't mix special and effective resist DNA. If you do you will get none of the effective resist for that stat showing up. This is especially nasty as special DNA does not go up with experimentation. For example 2 Giant Sand Beetle DNA samples (Effective Kinetic 20) in physique and prowess, combined with 3 Dragonet DNA samples (Special Kinetic 25) in menta, psychology and aggression will give you a kinetic resist of 8. [40% * 0% * 20 + 25% * 0% * 20 + 5% * 25 + 5% * 25 + 25% * 25 = 8.75 Round down]
As a rule of thumb don't mix special and effective protections for any resist you care about. If you find a good reason to do so then limit it to 2 effective and only put them in the mental and psychology slots. This should limit your resist loss to 10% of the special resist rating.