Bio Engineer Archive

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AlufNull wrote:

People, get off your high horse and look past your knee jerk reaction to holo grinders.

This guy is NOT GIVING ANYTHING AWAY!

He is SELLING the schematic. Somthing I am also willing to do.

If I produce 40 crates of BSN and sell them at the market price on my server, I will gross 2 million credits. However, in order to do this, I will have to go through the headache (to me) of gathering or buying the required resources.

If I sell my 1000 unit schematic I will gross/net 1.2 million credits and the Chef can go through the headache of gathering the resources on his/her own and leave me out of it.

Yes, it is obvious that giving away schematics is going to hurt other crafting. But, selling schematics is only shifting the work load.

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Alright. First...I fail to see how stating that selling schematics is bad translates to being on a high horse, and I also fail to see any kind of knee jerk reaction here. I have absolutely no problem with holo-grinders. They have the time, the energy, and the devotion to work towards mastering umpteen professions in their quest to reach Jedi. I hope it is worth it. However, I do have a problem with people who start to devalue my hard-earned skills. I do have a problem with people who come into a community of which I consider myself an active part and say something about how much my chosen profession sucks and is hellish and how it'll be dropped as soon as the hated master box is reached. Like it or not, that's how holo-grinders are perceived in this Forum, primarily due to the prominent hate posts by said grinders. No, such people are not the majority of holo-grinders, nor are they are a representative sample of the holo-grinding population...but they are the sample that we see.

I do not understand how pointing out the antiwisdom and damaging economic effects of schematic trades constitutes any kind of knee-jerk, short-sighted, self-righteous reaction. Sure, the person at the center of this controversy may be getting something out of the deal, but he is uncaringly hurting the market for others as he makes a little bit of cash and then drops bio-engineer like a bad habit. There are other people who did a similar thing...and they're in jail. Ken Lay ring a bell? Enron sound familiar? Ken Lay used Enron until it was dry, and then he got out, taking with him millions in illicit bonuses and stock options. In the process, he (and the others on Enron's Board) managed to totally screw the employees and business partners of the company. The same concept holds here. I fail to see how wanting to prevent the screwage of other bio-engineers constitutes some kind of high-horse reaction. Maybe if you took the time to explain your position (as I did), instead of insulting everyone else who disagrees with you, your arguments would be better taken and rationally analyzed by the rest of the posters to these boards.

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AlufNull wrote:

The "knee jerk reaction" is that no one here is looking at what this holo grinder actualy said. He does not say he is undercutting the market. He is not giving stuff away for free. But, no one cares to aknowledge that. They see, "holo" and "whore" and they start complaing about ruining the economy and how this guy is such a jerk.

Guess what, Delbon, you are guilty of this too.

"I do have a problem with people who come into a community of which I consider myself an active part and say something about how much my chosen profession sucks and is hellish and how it'll be dropped as soon as the hated master box is reached."

The grinder in question does not say anything of the kind. Here is his post.

"I am a Master Bio Engineer ( thanks to Holo #4) . I will whore myself out for a while making schematics and such to make up for all the cash I spent buying meat and floras while grinding. My prices are very resonable. Heres the catch, I'm not much of a harvesting nut so you will need to bring the materials for whatever you want made with you. If you want specific DNA samples for BE'd animals I will try and provide those for a price."

You also said:

"I do not understand how pointing out the antiwisdom and damaging economic effects of schematic trades constitutes any kind of knee-jerk, short-sighted, self-righteous reaction. "

Where are the damaging effects? How is selling a schematic at a fair market value different from producing and selling tissues/addatives?

This is my favorite.

"There are other people who did a similar thing...and they're in jail. Ken Lay ring a bell? Enron sound familiar? Ken Lay used Enron until it was dry, and then he got out, taking with him millions in illicit bonuses and stock options. In the process, he (and the others on Enron's Board) managed to totally screw the employees and business partners of the company. The same concept holds here. I fail to see how wanting to prevent the screwage of other bio-engineers constitutes some kind of high-horse reaction. "

Ken Lay misslead the invesment community, convicing them to inveset in a shell of a company. Essentialy defrauding them as well as stealing from his own employees. Please eplain who this holo grinder is defrauding and who he is stealing from. He did the work to make master BE, same as you and me. And now you are trying to convice me that because he wants to make some of his money back he is some kind of thief to be villified?

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You asked, so I'll try to deliver One thing I should point out here is that I think you are taking this far too personally. I also know precisely what the original poster said. I did, after all, read his post.

You said:
He does not say he is undercutting the market.

Alright, so I didn't say that I ran that stop sign earlier. That doesn't change the fact that I did it, though, does it?

You also said:
Where are the damaging effects? How is selling a schematic at a fair market value different from producing and selling tissues/addatives?
(this in response to my comment that schematic selling = bad)

The damaging effects have already been pointed out! If someone buys a schematic that will make 1K units of something or other, then that effectively removes the buyer from the market. In creating that schematic, you've given the buyer the ability to make something that you spent hours upon hours working to be able to make. Doesn't that at the very least make your time cheap? Sure, you get a half million credits for your time, and such a deal would seemingly be the best per-hour wage anyone could hope for, but you've gone and said, "The time I put into being able to make this product is worthless." I'm not gonna put a price on my time, cause I darn well spent forever working to master this profession. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point, because I don't foresee either of us budging from our positions here

Another point you made:
Please explain who this holo grinder is defrauding and who he is stealing from.

The Enron analogy was my favorite too

Defrauding, probably not. He's being quite open about his intentions. Stealing, however...he's stealing from every single other bio-engineer who cares about his work and wants to earn the respect and custom of his patrons. He's stealing the market so he can make a little bit of quick cash and then run. "Whoring myself out" implies by its very nature that I really don't care too much about what I'm doing. It implies that I'm here for a quickie, that I want to get in and get out as fast as possible. Do you think a prostitute really gives a darn about the actions she performs on her customer? Probably not...and the same principle applies here.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that nowhere did I say that this particular poster came into this Forum to post about the general hellishness and suckiness of BE as a holo-grind. Go ahead and re-read my post...I simply pointed out that there is a great amount of vitriol stored because of a few people who stirred up the hornet's nest. Not once did I say that the poster in question was doing that; I simply was simply trying to show why the general perception of holo-grinders is negative.

In conclusion, I think that we're going to have to just agree to disagree. It is obvious that neither one of us is going to change the views of the other, so instead of wasting more Forum space, why don't we just shake hands and let it go?

I am ready to drop the rest of it, but this is what I don't understand:

"If someone buys a schematic that will make 1K units of something or other, then that effectively removes the buyer from the market. "

Example 1. I gather or buy all the resources needed to make a full run of BSN. A chef comes to me and buys them for 2 million credits.

Example 2. Chef comes to me with his own resources and I sell him the schematic for 1.2 million credits (market cost minus resources and production time/upkeep.)

He is out of the market either way. I flat out, don't see a bit of difference.

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AlufNull wrote:

I am ready to drop the rest of it, but this is what I don't understand:

"If someone buys a schematic that will make 1K units of something or other, then that effectively removes the buyer from the market. "

Example 1. I gather or buy all the resources needed to make a full run of BSN. A chef comes to me and buys them for 2 million credits.

Example 2. Chef comes to me with his own resources and I sell him the schematic for 1.2 million credits (market cost minus resources and production time/upkeep.)

He is out of the market either way. I flat out, don't see a bit of difference.

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Hehe, I know...I considered pointing that out, but then thought better of it (because, rationally speaking, it makes sense, and weakens my argument). The intangible factor of the guy just really not caring is what tips the scales, in my opinion.

/handshake AlufNull

On a side note...Whoever went through and one-starred this thread should keep in mind that 1-star ratings should be reserved for stuff that is just outrageously off-topic or non-constructive. One-starring someone because they don't agree with whatever opinion you hold is stupid, so don't do it

Message Edited by Delbon_Clinion on 03-17-2004 12:24 AM

The problem is that this guy, by possessing our skillset as part of his grind to Jedi is able to very heavily dilute our market in a very short period because of the way the schematic system works

His lack of respect for our profession is distasteful but incidental

What hurts us economically is that he is certainly undercutting us - he has to, he needs to grab a handful of sales then drop the profession. If he didn't undercut us he wouldn't compete

Next he has to do virtually no work to make his money. It's not like there are hologrinders making top end Kimos, there are few if any, and if they are working that hard on their Bio Engineering then they really fall into the category of players who are genuinely part of the professions as they work their way through them rather than the stereotypical "Waaah, get me out of here, this profession suxx" hologrinders

I used the notion of "free" as comparitive rhetoric. The accurate term is cheap but the effect is the same. Now if someone could churn out 5k pets, enough to last any switched on CHs or Merchants with an eye for a bargain long enough that they would not need to buy from you and indeed wouldn't unless you matched the low price then it would be a less worthwhile task to be a BE

But they can't and that's only because it's not possible to get wholesale DNA nor to make pet schematics

It is possible to get wholesale meat and to make tissue schematics and this option allows dabblers and pet-oriented BEsto snatch the lion's share of the market from the committed tissue-orientedBE. So defending your ability to do this, when you have already stated that you're in this for the pets seems quite frankly greedy

It might be nice for you that you can occasionally sell a schematic to chefs and undermine our economy but I'm sure you wouldn't like it if we started doing the same with pets

Anyway the fault is primarily in the system, not the players and the fix is simple - stop the trade in schematics

My 1st holo said Master scout, was only 1 box away.. the 2nd said Doctor, so I've ditched the holos in favour of something more challenging. And boy, am I finding BE hard going.

BristaAB writes:

"It might be nice for you that you can occasionally sell a schematic to chefs and undermine our economy but I'm sure you wouldn't like it if we started doing the same with pets"

What I actually said:

OK, I accept your first point, I had missed where you posted your charge for providing a schematic

I still think you are missing something fundamental about the economics of the BSN market with regard to your second point. When people dilute the demand they lower the price

I suspect you are wrong about the prices this hologrinder is charging - neither of us know and we could only find out by asking him.

But look at it this way. If I send him a tell offering 50k for a 1000 limit schematic and he plans to drop the profession this afternoon his choice is to accept 50k or to not get 50k. Does it really seem so unlikely that he would accept?

Coming back to the proposal to remove schematics. It doesn't stop a chef client from providing resources and factory time - they can just put the BE on admin on one of their factories, have him start the run and then take him off.

You could still operate your business practice without physically handing over the schematic

Aluf-

Not interested in whipping this dead horse any more, but your entire argument assumes the seller in this case is selling his schematic at or somewhat below market price. If he is, you are dead on right. If he is instead selling it for 100k or 10k or less, well....

If I thought for 1 second that his price was within 30% of the 1.2 million figure you mention, I never would have started this thread.

That is just it, we don't know what he is selling for. This thread as a whole, just assumed the worst and ran with it. That's why I felt the need to post against it.

We don't need that sort of thing.

That is not to say that I am not guilty of it as well. I am. I can't seem to hold my tongue when people ask for answers to questions that are clearly spelled out in the faq. You have your holo grinders, I have my helpless noobs.

/shrug

Actually, *cough* we do and I quote:

"I'm still Master BE , Bring me your resources and ill make what ever you want. I charge 25k per schematic.

Nope