Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Discussion Thread: More High Level Sampleable Creatures Added
lammergeier
Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:52 pm
#14
I think our correspondent already knows where I stand on the issue.
removing the sampling cap will make CL35+ clones viable (currently CL23's and CL35's are the only practical choice to craft for CH's, CL10's for nonCH's).
unfortunately, as long as the game's 'validity check' is still in place, we'd simply be able to make MORE pets that the game will flag and condemn.
removing the sampling cap will make CL35+ clones viable (currently CL23's and CL35's are the only practical choice to craft for CH's, CL10's for nonCH's).
unfortunately, as long as the game's 'validity check' is still in place, we'd simply be able to make MORE pets that the game will flag and condemn.
lammergeier
Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:54 am
#15
droid327 wrote:
lammergeier wrote:
specifically:
all stats are capped at 1000 on samples (assembly can increase this, but no experimentation is allowed at 90%ish+).
CL80+ can cap stats on DNA.
a PURESTRAIN clone with such DNA and experimentation ends up in the CL128 range.
a CL65ish clone with medium armor is possible.
the game 'filters' AR2 pets: they are marked as 'invalid' once tamed and stored, and cannot be called again.
there are already hardcaps on kinetic and energy resists (60%).Well, although i want to go on the record as being for removing the sampling hard cap, I will say this....without the sample cap there is going to be a single best recipe that will be fairly simple:Peko Peko Alb PPA PPA VD Enhanced KwiThis is all using the swgcreatures simulator: assuming the CL106 EK has similar stats to the PPA - which are 1000 in everything except endurance, dep, courage, and fierceness, which dont matter much, this will yield an AR2 with 20k/19k/17k HAM, damage near 800, 60 kin/ener and no vulns, and stun/intim specials. The combine will actually be higher before experimentation with the assembly calculation, except in psychology. Experimenting on psych has been anecdotally linked to lowering the CL, anyway, and the VD is tossed in there to help bring the CL down, so this is the ideal situation for bringing the CL down fast, and it will almost definitely hit 70 in 2 gens if not 1 gen.And this brings up another point; since at the extreme upper end, stats can actually go up on assembly, the more you multigen a pet, the higher its HAM and damage will go while its CL goes down. If you had a backpack full of PPA DNA (or juvie krayt or stoneskin hanadak or other CL80+s with 60+ kin/ener and low enough CL to be possibly /maskable) with 1000 on the HAM stats, fortitude, and power, you could end up genning down a nonCH pet which, after 10 or 12 gens of resampling, would have such monstrous HAM and damage that current nonCH uber pets would look like CL10 wild pets right now, coupled with max kin and ener resists, and heavy armor, since after a few gens fortitude would hit 1500. Shudder at the backlash from that...
I'll let ArthurDent field the math on this, but:
you won't get 1500 in ANYTHING. the DNA going IN is capped at 1000 FLAT. assembly won't bring it up by 50%.
I've purestrained DNA with capped stats, and you're looking at around CL128 for the final product (20k HAM and all). mixing in some cheaper DNA to lower the CL only got me to CL90ish.
AR1 sticks at fort 500. AR2 sticks at fort 1000. you won't be seeing AR3 (which, even theoretically, would take fort 1500 or 2000 or more).
again... all the AR2 pets we've made are flagged as INVALID by the game once tamed and stored.
LloydPickering
Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:59 am
#16
Zadokk wrote:
This whole "if I can get close enough then I can sample it" argument is totally flawed. I'm not sure if any of you have tried using feign death to get samples? It is possible to send a smuggler first to agro the mob and then feign death. The mob then stops attacking (and doesn't attack you) while you can sample it. If there were no caps then I could come away with a whole bag of Krayt DNA
There is still the cl70 cap, and the fact that curren't pets are weak in the current combat system. There is no way a pet of Krayt/Krayt/Krayt/Krayt/Krayt will be under cl70. The only way to do this would be to use very low level DNA mixed with the Krayt DNA like Huurton Pup, which would neutralise some of the Krayt stats anyway.
I reckon the strongest pets under this system would bepets made from creatures that are onlya small amountabove the sample limit, likethe ancient bull rancor (cl98) used by Lammergeier and Arthur. This would allow you to use stronger DNA for the other parts of the template making it a bit more balanced.
TBH I don't see the problem with the Pet made on TC because it is nearer the right balance level for other Master Combat Professions.
Zadokk
Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:11 am
#17
LloydPickering wrote:
Zadokk wrote:
This whole "if I can get close enough then I can sample it" argument is totally flawed. I'm not sure if any of you have tried using feign death to get samples? It is possible to send a smuggler first to agro the mob and then feign death. The mob then stops attacking (and doesn't attack you) while you can sample it. If there were no caps then I could come away with a whole bag of Krayt DNA
There is still the cl70 cap, and the fact that curren't pets are weak in the current combat system. There is no way a pet of Krayt/Krayt/Krayt/Krayt/Krayt will be under cl70. The only way to do this would be to use very low level DNA mixed with the Krayt DNA like Huurton Pup, which would neutralise some of the Krayt stats anyway.
well that's what I was implying. as we've seen, ancient bull rancor has been used like this and even with juvenile krayt dna -the final combinationcould be lethal.
LloydPickering wrote:
TBH I don't see the problem with the Pet made on TC because it is nearer the right balance level for other Master Combat Professions.
Well with the current combat system then that it is true. Currently, a mastercombantant can solo krayts - which haveheavy armour, so I don't see why CHs shouldn't be allowedone medium armour pet? However, with the rebalance coming up, the devs want to see this come to a stop and to encourage group play and the ability to solo stuff.However, even with the rebalance Istill think a CH should be allowed a medium armour pet.I expect after the CU,someone will find a way to solo enraged rancors or mereks andthus renderingCH useless in PvP.
ArthurDentOnBria
Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:12 am
#18
Well, I think you are exaggerating the extent to which you could benefit from re-sampling such creatures. The only way the CL is going to go down on successive generations, is if the mind and damage go down, and the creature that we made had a mind pool of only 6.5k and damage of only 300. So yes, there is still room to push those down a little further, but I'm not convined that in doing so you'd make necessarily a more useful pet.
Also, I'm not so sure about the "single best recipe" theory. In fact, given those dna samples that you list, that would certainly not be how I'd use them, but oh well, that's what makes these things interesting
droid327 wrote:
Well, although i want to go on the record as being for removing the sampling hard cap, I will say this....without the sample cap there is going to be a single best recipe that will be fairly simple:
Peko Peko Alb PPA PPAVD Enhanced Kwi
This is all using the swgcreatures simulator: assuming the CL106 EK has similar stats to the PPA - which are 1000 in everything except endurance, dep, courage, and fierceness, which dont matter much,this will yield an AR2 with 20k/19k/17k HAM, damage near 800, 60 kin/ener and no vulns, and stun/intim specials. The combine will actually be higher before experimentation with the assembly calculation, except in psychology. Experimenting on psych has been anecdotally linked to lowering the CL, anyway, and the VD is tossed in there to help bring the CL down, so this is the ideal situation forbringing the CL down fast, and it will almost definitely hit 70 in 2 gens if not 1 gen.
And this brings up another point; since at the extreme upper end, stats can actually go up on assembly, the more you multigen a pet, the higher its HAM and damage will go while its CL goes down. If you had a backpack full ofPPADNA (or juvie krayt or stoneskin hanadak or other CL80+s with 60+ kin/ener and low enough CL to be possibly /maskable) with 1000 on the HAM stats, fortitude, and power, you could end upgenning down a nonCH pet which, after 10 or 12 gens of resampling, would have such monstrous HAM and damage that current nonCH uber pets would look like CL10 wild pets right now, coupled withmax kin and ener resists, and heavy armor, since after a few gens fortitude would hit 1500. Shudder at the backlash from that...
droid327
Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:45 am
#19
lammergeier wrote:
I'll let ArthurDent field the math on this, but:
you won't get 1500 in ANYTHING. the DNA going IN is capped at 1000 FLAT. assembly won't bring it up by 50%.
I've purestrained DNA with capped stats, and you're looking at around CL128 for the final product (20k HAM and all). mixing in some cheaper DNA to lower the CL only got me to CL90ish.
AR1 sticks at fort 500. AR2 sticks at fort 1000. you won't be seeing AR3 (which, even theoretically, would take fort 1500 or 2000 or more).
again... all the AR2 pets we've made are flagged as INVALID by the game once tamed and stored.
Well theres no way you could answer this question, but are you sure the 1000 point cap isnt just for wild DNA? I'm just wondering if resampling the DNA would force the stats back to 1000 or if they'd carry some of the assembly-roll bonus over, assuming you didnt experiment. Again, its pure hyperbole right now, but thats really the point of the thread, rather try to think of the extremes now than after they go live and have the devs panic-button nerf us =)
droid327
Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:59 pm
#20
lammergeier wrote:
specifically:
all stats are capped at 1000 on samples (assembly can increase this, but no experimentation is allowed at 90%ish+).
CL80+ can cap stats on DNA.
a PURESTRAIN clone with such DNA and experimentation ends up in the CL128 range.
a CL65ish clone with medium armor is possible.
the game 'filters' AR2 pets: they are marked as 'invalid' once tamed and stored, and cannot be called again.
there are already hardcaps on kinetic and energy resists (60%).
Well, although i want to go on the record as being for removing the sampling hard cap, I will say this....without the sample cap there is going to be a single best recipe that will be fairly simple:
Peko Peko Alb PPA PPAVD Enhanced Kwi
This is all using the swgcreatures simulator: assuming the CL106 EK has similar stats to the PPA - which are 1000 in everything except endurance, dep, courage, and fierceness, which dont matter much,this will yield an AR2 with 20k/19k/17k HAM, damage near 800, 60 kin/ener and no vulns, and stun/intim specials. The combine will actually be higher before experimentation with the assembly calculation, except in psychology. Experimenting on psych has been anecdotally linked to lowering the CL, anyway, and the VD is tossed in there to help bring the CL down, so this is the ideal situation forbringing the CL down fast, and it will almost definitely hit 70 in 2 gens if not 1 gen.
And this brings up another point; since at the extreme upper end, stats can actually go up on assembly, the more you multigen a pet, the higher its HAM and damage will go while its CL goes down. If you had a backpack full ofPPADNA (or juvie krayt or stoneskin hanadak or other CL80+s with 60+ kin/ener and low enough CL to be possibly /maskable) with 1000 on the HAM stats, fortitude, and power, you could end upgenning down a nonCH pet which, after 10 or 12 gens of resampling, would have such monstrous HAM and damage that current nonCH uber pets would look like CL10 wild pets right now, coupled withmax kin and ener resists, and heavy armor, since after a few gens fortitude would hit 1500. Shudder at the backlash from that...
lammergeier
Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:29 am
#21
droid327 wrote:
lammergeier wrote:
I'll let ArthurDent field the math on this, but:
you won't get 1500 in ANYTHING. the DNA going IN is capped at 1000 FLAT. assembly won't bring it up by 50%.
I've purestrained DNA with capped stats, and you're looking at around CL128 for the final product (20k HAM and all). mixing in some cheaper DNA to lower the CL only got me to CL90ish.
AR1 sticks at fort 500. AR2 sticks at fort 1000. you won't be seeing AR3 (which, even theoretically, would take fort 1500 or 2000 or more).
again... all the AR2 pets we've made are flagged as INVALID by the game once tamed and stored.Well theres no way you could answer this question, but are you sure the 1000 point cap isnt just for wild DNA? I'm just wondering if resampling the DNA would force the stats back to 1000 or if they'd carry some of the assembly-roll bonus over, assuming you didnt experiment. Again, its pure hyperbole right now, but thats really the point of the thread, rather try to think of the extremes now than after they go live and have the devs panic-button nerf us =)
I can state categorically and definitely that the cap on stats is 1000.
I resampled some of my variations on the clones ArthurDent and I were working with (some of them exceeded CL70 but were under CL75).
the stats were 1k+ on the clones, and capped at 1k on resample. it's not just a wild-cap. similarly, GDK DNA (sampled on a TC-clone with frogs during the bug) was also reported to be capped at 1000... as were krayts and such. again, the assembly bonus did NOT raise the stats over 1000 on resample.
I'll post some of the other DNA I sampled (I'm at work all weekend, since that's MY work-week)... like malkloc plainswalkers and enraged rancors... to show a better range of the capped stats. ancient bull rancor DNA was what I HAPPENED across while sampling, the stats are high, so I grabbed it. if krayts had been spawning at ALL (TC was on mini-hardware, and spawns were VERY badly broken at the time), I'd have something to show for seven hours in the krayt graveyard.
to be clear: you CANNOT experiment beyond about 95%. the option simply does not exist.
Amana
Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:11 am
#22
really though Arthur I think our CL 75 cap needs to be raised a bit higher the mutant rancors tend to anger me cause I hunt alone and can't see what their difficulty lvl is. I mean I don't think we should have an unlimited cap cause then I found find a krayt dragon spawn let my buddies kill it then nab a sample or too. Plus with your post on that creature with AR2 and that kind of HAM I think with a bit of tweaking and some nice DNA you could get AR3 with some resists. and have it be about lvl 74 or so just below the CHs cap limit on creatures they can handle given the CH would have to be a wookie to override the agressivness of the creature but /shrug. Also did you try doing a lowered creature like a gnort? to see where that went? The one thing I would deffinately love and would help us BEs out is if we could sample the creatures at the geo caves excluding the fire spider and acklay. That would be a paradise for me being able to sit around sampling the enhanced klikniks, kwis and force klikniks. Also one thing that should be adressed is the special attacks we should be able to put any kind of attack on their like plague strike and open wounds.
Anarrion
Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:02 am
#23
Let's keep in mind here that medium armor is like, in some ways, light armor with 50% resist. If it takes 1000 Fortitude to get medium armor with 0% additional resist, then we still need to get a bit above 1000 Fortitude to get a tank as good as a Light Armor, 60% resist, ignoring HAM. If the chances are very lowof successfully getting a sample from a creature with Fortitude of 1000 or greater, then I don't seeMedium Armor petsas a problem.
Also, the current limit on Kinetic and Energy resists is Light Armor, 60%. We could keep this limit, more or less,with the modification that Medium Armor is limited to 20% Kinetic and Energy resist. We could still make better tanks than currently because we could breed in higher HAM than currently.
It may well be that no changes to Mask Scent or the Sampling Success Rate formulaare needed. Just drop the CL 75 limit and see what happens. Considering the difficulty in getting a sample from a Mutant Rancor, I suspect we willget not much more thansome whining about how hard it is to get a sample from Kimogilas and Krayt Dragons.
droid327
Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:30 pm
#24
Zadokk wrote:
once you've spotted something you don't recognise, stand still, slap on mask scent, alt+tab to your web browser and go to swgcreatures.com. Check out its difficulty level and stats and then decide what you want to do
Amana wrote:
really though Arthur I think our CL 75 cap needs to be raised a bit higher the mutant rancors tend to anger me cause I hunt alone and can't see what their difficulty lvl is.
swgcreatures.com=0-point ranger for all 
Amana
Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:27 pm
#25
problem is they will range from the cl cap to above it 
I have sampled many a mutant rancor and have only gotten like 10 samples. The max number of samples I have gotten off a MR is 2.
I have sampled many a mutant rancor and have only gotten like 10 samples. The max number of samples I have gotten off a MR is 2.
Zadokk
Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:33 am
#26
once you've spotted something you don't recognise, stand still, slap on mask scent, alt+tab to your web browser and go to swgcreatures.com. Check out its difficulty level and stats and then decide what you want to do
Amana wrote:
really though Arthur I think our CL 75 cap needs to be raised a bit higher the mutant rancors tend to anger me cause I hunt alone and can't see what their difficulty lvl is.