Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Very Important Announcement Regarding CU!!
droidekasnightmare
Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:36 am
#14
MTOCatalog wrote:
LloydPickering wrote:
I dont want to make Stims
I dont want to make Enhancers
I dont want to make Meds of any sort (Except possibly Pet stuff)
I dont want to have to buy SEAs just to be viable.
I dont even REALLY want to make tissues.
I WANT to make pets...and I WANT the devs to support me in this.
To me the term 'Bioengineer' conjures up words like genetics, samples and modification. It also conjures up the idea of evil scientists both in the field and the laborotory.
It does not make me think of someone making meds.
If we already have people specialising in specific areas of BE, then adding even more areas is simply ridiculous. BE seems to be the junkyard of ideas the Devs have, but don't know where to place.
The removal of the Scout pre-reqs is good for spare SPs, but we will still need to put those SPs into Exploration. Also...look at it as the way the Devs view the BE profession...They are removeing the scout pre-reqs and making it med only...To me, the scout pre-reqs are the SPs that go into the Pet side, and the Med side is the Tissue side with a little crossover like Pet Stims. Does that mean that the Devs are moving BE away from Pet-Crafting?
To me, it look slike the Devs are intending to marginalise Pet crafting furthur as it is just too difficult for them to place/fix. This when combined with CH not being addressed in the CURB gives me the impression that pets will go the way of the Dodo...
I couldn't agree more. I realize that BE "fixes" are outside of the scope of the CU, but come on. I don't want all of the med crafting.
And I don't see crafting docs giving up being crafting docs. They will become BEs. So if the same people that were crafting meds before are still going to be crafting meds, why move them?
Dev logic?
I agree fully with the above posters. *nod*
PlainWhiteSocks
Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:55 am
#15
I guess I'm in the minority, or at least in the minority of people posting.
I have a friend that works for Genentech. They have a battery of RL BE’s working there, and their deep in the pharmaceuticals business. Pills and stuff. Even cures. In real life the pharmaceutical business is dead without BE.
As for us crafting meds for this game. I don’t think it’s that big a deal. For us or the current crafting Docs. Yep, that’s right folks the crafting Docs are up in arms over this change too. Current docs that want to craft can afford the skill points now to pick up BE. What they haven’t said (or at least I didn’t see) is where the schematics and experiment points for med crafting will be placed in the BE tree. It’s possible they’ll set it up so Docs don’t need MBE to make meds. If that’s the case then the current crafting docs will be making meds only. Everything else is in the other branches.
We will be getting a bunch of new customers, but I think there will be enough doc BE’s around to handle them. For those of us that want to branch out into the med crafting world it may very well be that 12pt doc BE’s will be able to craft better meds. That still doesn’t put us out of the market. It does mean that we probably will not enjoy the same level of profit with 2 less exp points. I didn’t get into the BE prof to make scads of cred. The CU hasn’t changed that.
Will we be schematic monkeys? That’s a choice we will have to make on an individual basis. If enough existing BE’s choose not to make schematics or the supply meds goes to nil, there will be a bunch of people willing to fill that void and pick up whatever parts of BE needed to make meds. Either way, we won’t have to deal with it if we don’t want to.
Pet Making. Do you really think a doc with a bazzilion credits can make a pet better than the current BE’s? That’s a laughable prospect. It takes time to learn the pet creation system. Even the basics take more than the MBE title above your toon. Many people see CH getting a leg up in the CU. I think there will be at least a bunch of people that will pick up some CH for tanking. They’re going to need lower level tank pets. The current BE’s are the only people in a position to make great CL20 tank pets. The current docs out there sure aren’t going to be able to. In fact most of them probably won’t want to spend the time to learn the pet creation system, let alone how to hit a certain level.
In short, we get an end user product that everyone will want (stims). We’ll still be the best pet makers. We’ll have an initial leg up on tissues cause of the resources/experience we already have. We’ll get back 14 skill points. Looks good to me.
I have a friend that works for Genentech. They have a battery of RL BE’s working there, and their deep in the pharmaceuticals business. Pills and stuff. Even cures. In real life the pharmaceutical business is dead without BE.
As for us crafting meds for this game. I don’t think it’s that big a deal. For us or the current crafting Docs. Yep, that’s right folks the crafting Docs are up in arms over this change too. Current docs that want to craft can afford the skill points now to pick up BE. What they haven’t said (or at least I didn’t see) is where the schematics and experiment points for med crafting will be placed in the BE tree. It’s possible they’ll set it up so Docs don’t need MBE to make meds. If that’s the case then the current crafting docs will be making meds only. Everything else is in the other branches.
We will be getting a bunch of new customers, but I think there will be enough doc BE’s around to handle them. For those of us that want to branch out into the med crafting world it may very well be that 12pt doc BE’s will be able to craft better meds. That still doesn’t put us out of the market. It does mean that we probably will not enjoy the same level of profit with 2 less exp points. I didn’t get into the BE prof to make scads of cred. The CU hasn’t changed that.
Will we be schematic monkeys? That’s a choice we will have to make on an individual basis. If enough existing BE’s choose not to make schematics or the supply meds goes to nil, there will be a bunch of people willing to fill that void and pick up whatever parts of BE needed to make meds. Either way, we won’t have to deal with it if we don’t want to.
Pet Making. Do you really think a doc with a bazzilion credits can make a pet better than the current BE’s? That’s a laughable prospect. It takes time to learn the pet creation system. Even the basics take more than the MBE title above your toon. Many people see CH getting a leg up in the CU. I think there will be at least a bunch of people that will pick up some CH for tanking. They’re going to need lower level tank pets. The current BE’s are the only people in a position to make great CL20 tank pets. The current docs out there sure aren’t going to be able to. In fact most of them probably won’t want to spend the time to learn the pet creation system, let alone how to hit a certain level.
In short, we get an end user product that everyone will want (stims). We’ll still be the best pet makers. We’ll have an initial leg up on tissues cause of the resources/experience we already have. We’ll get back 14 skill points. Looks good to me.
bline163
Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:03 am
#16
Good points Plane!
I've been thinking this over and I have to agree with lots of these posts, but honestly crafting meds wouldn't be that bad. Then I say well docs just got focked big time. So now I think the best solution would be to make tissues for docs. Why this well BE is all about enhancing stuff. Do real doctors make medicine? NO they diagnos it and treat it. So why should doctors craft in swg because its been there since day one? I'll agree / disagree on this point, but honestly I think BE's should make something to enhance doc craftables. This will be like chefs in a way.
what do you all think about this idea? I sure hope the correspondent takes a look at this idea.
vortexala
Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:57 am
#17
Just to shed some light on the Doc/CM side of things(because you'll be getting BOTH Doc and CM crafting)...
The devs are going to put all the medical 'enhancers' into one branch of BE. They'll have to transfer over the existing Doc/CM experimentation to whatever the BE experimentation mod will be. They'll also have to(or suffer great flammage) make sure that the 10pts for medical crafting tops out at the 4th box of the line and not Master BE. Those currently into Medical Crafting will just switch over to that one line of BE and continue with their crafting.
So there won't be much change to those of you dedicated to BE.
Also, the medical items won't be required. They'll just be optional items that Healers can use if they choose to enhance their natural healing ability. So the demand may not be all that much to begin with.
And lastly, I'd suggest you all make sure that your experimentation remains seperate from the medical one, or you'll just end up with former Docs/CMs going MBE with their 12pt suits and resource stashes.
ArthurDentOnBria
Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:04 pm
#18
This is how I choose to look at it as well. I see it as a net positive. For those that make pets exclusively, you'll be able to do that, and if you don't use your hunting skills, or want to cut back on them a little relying more on vegash or droids, you'll be able to do that and potentially save 14 skill points. Another thing I see as a positive is that now that we will have the opportunity to make desirable "end products", I believe this will go a long ways towards easing tensions with chefs in particular. Being overly reliant on component manufacturing is asking for trouble imo.
PlainWhiteSocks wrote:
In short, we get an end user product that everyone will want (stims). We’ll still be the best pet makers. We’ll have an initial leg up on tissues cause of the resources/experience we already have. We’ll get back 14 skill points. Looks good to me.
Halthron
Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:10 pm
#19
What I expect to happen:
1) Doc, CM & BE experimentation all rolled into one, exactly as BE experimentation is now
2) Doc & CM experimentation SEAs become BE SEAs
3) Docs start making chef schematics
4) No BE can sell chef tissues because docs are selling schematics cheaply. BEs can't sell doc stuff because we don't have the necessary resources.
IMO, this is just a lose-lose proposition but I suppose we'll see shortly.
1) Doc, CM & BE experimentation all rolled into one, exactly as BE experimentation is now
2) Doc & CM experimentation SEAs become BE SEAs
3) Docs start making chef schematics
4) No BE can sell chef tissues because docs are selling schematics cheaply. BEs can't sell doc stuff because we don't have the necessary resources.
IMO, this is just a lose-lose proposition but I suppose we'll see shortly.
Don_T_Shoot
Wed Mar 30, 2005 12:37 pm
#20
"Also, the medical items won't be required. They'll just be optional items that Healers can use if they choose to enhance their natural healing ability. So the demand may not be all that much to begin with."
You are thinking like a Dev and not like pretty much every player I've ever encountered. Whatever the max can be attained will be. If there is a cap to hit, a large number of players will hit it and then figure out how to stack on top of it.
Crafting Docs will switch, current BE's that don't want to get into that stuff shouldn't feel forced into doing it.
You are thinking like a Dev and not like pretty much every player I've ever encountered. Whatever the max can be attained will be. If there is a cap to hit, a large number of players will hit it and then figure out how to stack on top of it.
Crafting Docs will switch, current BE's that don't want to get into that stuff shouldn't feel forced into doing it.
PlainWhiteSocks
Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:27 pm
#21
vortexala wrote:Just to shed some light on the Doc/CM side of things(because you'll be getting BOTH Doc and CM crafting)...The devs are going to put all the medical 'enhancers' into one branch of BE. They'll have to transfer over the existing Doc/CM experimentation to whatever the BE experimentation mod will be. They'll also have to(or suffer great flammage) make sure that the 10pts for medical crafting tops out at the 4th box of the line and not Master BE. Those currently into Medical Crafting will just switch over to that one line of BE and continue with their crafting.So there won't be much change to those of you dedicated to BE.Also, the medical items won't be required. They'll just be optional items that Healers can use if they choose to enhance their natural healing ability. So the demand may not be all that much to begin with.And lastly, I'd suggest you all make sure that your experimentation remains seperate from the medical one, or you'll just end up with former Docs/CMs going MBE with their 12pt suits and resource stashes.
Glad you said it, I wasn't sure if this was still under NDA lol.
PlainWhiteSocks
Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:42 pm
#22
Halthron wrote:
What I expect to happen:
1) Doc, CM & BE experimentation all rolled into one, exactly as BE experimentation is now
2) Doc & CM experimentation SEAs become BE SEAs
3) Docs start making chef schematics
4) No BE can sell chef tissues because docs are selling schematics cheaply. BEs can't sell doc stuff because we don't have the necessary resources.
IMO, this is just a lose-lose proposition but I suppose we'll see shortly.
1&2) Your guess would take a lot of work that simply doesn't need to happen. With a deadline coming up very very fast I don't think the dev team will be making any big changes like this. All they really have to do is put the med crafting skills into one of our crafting lines. They wouldn't even need to rename the skill or change it in any way. If they did this (I think they will come close) they would have to touch the SEA system at all, and 12pt docs would remain intact. The schematics could also be spread between medic and BE.
3&4) Med crafting goes into one line. Docs will not be able to make all the schems that chefs need. Besides chefs already do this with their alts why would they go to a doc when they have an alt ready to make them?
Felisconcolori
Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:23 pm
#23
Hmm.
This is my take as I'm *at this moment* reading the new CU information released. And, right now, I'm getting into the changes to the "healer" professions.
Now, in the ways in which I'm reading it...
ALL medical crafting above Medic will be unceremoniously dumped into BioEngineer, which none of the current bioengineers want and which (seemingly) most doctors don't want. (At least, I have never seen a thread/heard an ingame discussion along the lines of... Gee, I wish Bioengineers made all the meds!)
The pinnacle of StimPacks will be the almighty Stim-B, which will be produced by bioengineers exclusively.
I've seen some people in this thread say "No, docs might still be able to craft *X* but need components from BEs." But the post says, clearly, "All crafting skill mods and all crafting schematics moved into this tree." (This tree refers to BioEngineer.) After the CU, there will be NO crafting Docs. All crafting, for all stims and such, will be in BioEngineer or the crafting line of Medic. As stated elsewhere in the document, they are seperating the playstyles so that Docs and CMs *will* be field professions with functional combat roles, and that crafting is being seperated from this playstyle. And landing in my happy trando lap. Now, my datapad is already pretty darn full of pet schematics, pet stim schematics, and tissue schematics. The only good news I read in all of the prior pages is the assertion that... "we have removed the need for about seventy percent of those medicines"
This means my worries about filling up my datapad and having to decide whether or not to keep pet skins or medical schematics are *slightly* lessened. (Bet not many of you thought about this angle... =)Worried me a little because I'm sure datapad space requirements are outside the CU scope.)
What really, really, REALLY upsets me about all of this is that the CU is taking place without a lot of attention to incidental changes. Bioengineers did not want doctor crafting. Docs didn't want to give us doc crafting. But, because the development team has chosen to promote one playstyle as the "more fun" one, that is how they will impact us, without even so much as a "Sorry, guys, this is what we're doing" reach-around post from Tiggs or TH. Heck, I wouldn't even mind a "Yes, we did, and we don't care" post from anyone in a red name. Deciding to kill the CU alpha is an outright smack upside the head to those people that thought they might have input into the process in a meaningful way, and also IMHO a sloppy bit of software dev cycle. There's always an alpha.
I don't think I'll kill myself over the CU; I doubt I'll cancel my subscription in outright disgust. But I am grinding a complete combat monkey on another server just in case. I completely understand the way Zadokk feels, in a general "I'm not Zadokk" kindof way, and I also see the positives coming as a result of the changes. However, I feel that all of the healing professions are getting a slap upside the collective head in that the playstyles I see most frequently are being force-changed. The parting of the mists on the big changes of the CU has not improved my outlook; the dark side covers much now.
Doctor has been forced into being a combat role... As RL check, very few doctors operate in the field unless they absolutely must. Most of the people in battlefields and on front lines are combat medics. BEs do have a role in medical crafting. I do like the little diagram, though, and hopefully they will get all of the abilities and things right, fixed, and working.
Because it may effect us, I note that the ratings for a CH will depend on the pet (ie, Off, Def, CC). One thing I have not seen addressed, and which I am highly concerned over, is the affect all of the changes will have on our BE crafted pets. Will they all become clones of the natural world? Can we *please, please, with sugar on tops* get an answer to this? Yes, it might seem not to be an important change, but it *will* have to be addressed at a developer level to keep in line with the overhaul of the HAM system. It will be of supreme importance to CHs. I'm scared to make any pets until I know how this will pan out, and could be the BE-killer that doc crafting and switch/profession flooding potentially is.
/rant... Sorry, I'm stopping now, I'm just very scared. Happy commando fun. Yes. I will go blow things up now.
droidekasnightmare
Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:21 am
#24
Is it just me or are our trees getting crowed? I mean, where are they going to put all this new crafting?
As it stands now it's:
Pets
Tissues
Sampling
Experimentation points
So where does all the new stuff go? Absolute worst case scenario would be this (which would thoroughly piss me off as the whole reason I took BE up was to make pets):
Med Crafting
Tissues
Med Experimentation
Tissue Experimentation
But again, to keep the docs from becoming BE schematic monkeys one can't just do:
Pets
Tissues/Medical
Sampling
BE Experimentation/Med experimentation
*sigh* Why couldn't they've just left us alone? No BE 'update' is better than the Medical Engineer update we're getting.
As it stands now it's:
Pets
Tissues
Sampling
Experimentation points
So where does all the new stuff go? Absolute worst case scenario would be this (which would thoroughly piss me off as the whole reason I took BE up was to make pets):
Med Crafting
Tissues
Med Experimentation
Tissue Experimentation
But again, to keep the docs from becoming BE schematic monkeys one can't just do:
Pets
Tissues/Medical
Sampling
BE Experimentation/Med experimentation
*sigh* Why couldn't they've just left us alone? No BE 'update' is better than the Medical Engineer update we're getting.
schizoF
Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:00 am
#25
My question would be about how the CU will affect us BE´s whom are making tissues.
Will the required stats remain or will it change? Do I dare to hunt and stock good resources now or will the be worthless when the CU comes....or even worse....will all my resources be useless?
I don´t browse around so much on the forums so I miss out alot of updates etc but....donnu....the CU somehow scares me in a way I´m unable to explain :/
Will the required stats remain or will it change? Do I dare to hunt and stock good resources now or will the be worthless when the CU comes....or even worse....will all my resources be useless?
I don´t browse around so much on the forums so I miss out alot of updates etc but....donnu....the CU somehow scares me in a way I´m unable to explain :/
evfields
Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:59 am
#26
I'm more or less excited. I'm worried that our profession may lose its uniqueness. I doubt that well still be rarer than Jedi after the CU. I'm just wondering how many docs/cm's will pick up the profession. If memory serves, for only 43 more skill points they can master doctor and BE...not sure.
One thing I am wondering about is the hunting line - though it will clear up some points for well, non hunters, will most pet makers be able to drop it? Can a novice scout see information like resists, that is, without alt-tabbing and going to swgcreatures.com? Personally I am a BE to make pets, as it's the only unique crafting. I dont mind pet stims and tissues and don't think I'll mind medicines, but it's just not as important to me.
One thing I am wondering about is the hunting line - though it will clear up some points for well, non hunters, will most pet makers be able to drop it? Can a novice scout see information like resists, that is, without alt-tabbing and going to swgcreatures.com? Personally I am a BE to make pets, as it's the only unique crafting. I dont mind pet stims and tissues and don't think I'll mind medicines, but it's just not as important to me.