Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Functionality: High Ham LVL 10 Tank -vs- Buffed Player Tank
shargus wrote:
Yes I am a 2 member group while soloing but to what ultimate affect on game play does this power have? Do I really complete missions any faster? (no, these pets don't do almost any damage) Do I harvest any better? (no I take a penalty) Do I get xp faster (yes, but I can do that grouped with a yard trash pet left at the mission terms)
I can get the same level of power from a set of buffs which also does not require any skill points, just some credits.
As stated the belief by devs is combat is out of balance and these lvl 10 pets, although still craftable, are considered taboo while other imbalances are still acceptable.
You are effectively a 2 member group while soloing, therefore you are doing missions at much less risk (in fact probably almost zero risk if you know how to use your pets). The fact you could use buffs to get 'the same level of power' isn't an appropriate argument since getting buff requires the use of skill points (either yours or someone elses).
The creature balance is done, these creatures have nothing to do with the balancing, plain and simple they are the result of a bug in the crafting system and the fact they are still callable is a bug in the validity check. The opinion about the validity check as a 'stop gap' doesn't matter. The need for a check was directly caused by these types of pets. For someone to say 'well since the Devs haven't told me exactly what a CL 10 pet is supposed to be then its all ok', is ignoring the reason why the validity check was put in to begin with.
For any who use the excuse 'well its their bugged code, until they fix it its all ok. I'm not exploiting'. Please tell that to the smugglers who multi-sliced, and those who duped credits on the bazaar (the effects of which are still felt by the economy). If you can find them that is..since they were banned.
Has the general population become so self centered that people are completely unable to posses a little personal integrity and the ability to tell right from wrong without having to have someone in 'authority' tell you you're doing wrong?
One more thing: You do not take a penalty during harvesting anymore since grouping with pets doesn't count. They took that out a publish or 2 ago.
Message Edited by Kevm on 05-23-2004 02:24 PM
Kevm wrote:
For any who use the excuse 'well its their bugged code, until they fix it its all ok. I'm not exploiting'. Please tell that to the smugglers who multi-sliced, and those who duped credits on the bazaar (the effects of which are still felt by the economy). If you can find them that is..since they were banned.
Has the general population become so self centered that people are completely unable to posses a little personal integrity and the ability to tell right from wrong without having to have someone in 'authority' tell you you're doing wrong?
One more thing: You do not take a penalty during harvesting anymore since grouping with pets doesn't count. They took that out a publish or 2 ago.
Message Edited by Kevm on 05-23-2004 02:24 PM
To say that bioengineers that are creating overpowerd pets are somehow exploiting is ludicrous! Now, I don't know exactly how people double sliced or duped credits but I would be pretty certain that they were doing something outside of the normal slicing process in the case of slicing.
The bioengineers that are creating these 'super pets' aren't doing anything outside of the normal pet creation process to create these pets. We are using exactly the same process of combining 5 DNA samples, so how can this be called an exploit? We may be guilty of spending time studying creature stats and experimenting to see what would give the best result, but there's nothing wrong with that. As I've said before, every true crafter wants to make the best items and this is no different.
It's not as simple as having the personal integrity and ability to tell right from wrong. Going back to your example of credit duping, we all know that duping is duping regardless of whether you dupe 100 credits or 10 million credits. But if you are saying that bioengineers are exploiting by creating these super pets, where do you draw the line as to what is an exploit and what is not? This is my point. None of us know what is acceptable...is 8k HAM, 50% kinetic acceptable? How about 5k HAM 30% kinetic? The problem is, you can ask 100 bioengineers this question and you will get 100 different opinions. So if you think about it, every bioengineer that is making pets could by your definition be exploiting, since nobody knows what is within the boundaries of acceptability. After all, an exploit is an exploit, regardless of whether you are creating a 10k HAM, 60% kinetic pet, or a 5K HAM, 30% kinetic pet. So at the end of the day, it is the developers responsibility to set the limits.
NancyJ, forgive me and do not take this personally, but I think you and Talthazar both are doing the BE community a VERY serious disservice by continuing to decribe the 10K health, 60% Kinetic pets as "Bugged".
These are the result of using the BE crafting system accordign to all the normal procedures and practices, with normally obtained DNA, that does NOT exhibit any abberations in its combining at all. To describe them as unexpected, overpowered, unintended, or whatever other term is reasonably accurate; we all agree that the developers most likely did not envision or intend such results to be possible. To describe them as "bugged" implies that the BE that makes them is somehow going outside the system, using an exploit or other practices that break the rules as implemented in the game mechanics. It shifts the "blame" for these creatures from the unintented potential in the crafting system, which is SOE and the developer's responsibility, to the players, defining us as cheating because we exceeded the expectations of the developers that created the system we are to use.
I personally feel this is a VERY damaging attitude, and quite heavily to blame for the seriously adversarial tone this discussion has taken.
If you, or anyone else, developer, CSR, designer or other BE, can demonstrate to me how the DNA obtained from a dozen or more different creatures, combined though any of a number of different formulas, is a "bug" or "exploit", I will accept the term you are using. Until that point, I feel that you have "sided" with the face-saving rhetoric of SOE in the face of an unintended result of their efforts, and I feel you are NOT accurately or appropriately representing the BE community in this issue.
We all want the overpowered pet issue to be appropriately resolved, with the exception of a few that see this as easy profit or a powerful advantage in combat, and would prefer to see it met with careful and thorough revamping of the crafting system. I think most BE's consider the pet-check system a poor half-measure, sloppily implemented, which exacerbates rather than corrects the problem
What we absolutely DO NOT WANT is to be tarred as "exploiters" in the favor of SOE admitting a simple, unintended mistake in the capacity of the crafting system for the BE profession. We, as BE's, are not doing anything which has not been proferred as our appropriate means of crafting pets in the creation of these creatures, and to blame those that follow the rules for their unexpected success both alienates and disheartens the community.
This may not affect the BE that is making tissues for Tailoring or for Chef at the outset, but if SOE continues, with your compliance, to define the BE petmaker as a cheat and as taking unfair advantage of their profession, then you will find the only BEs in the game will be tailors and chefs.
The place to start is with our annointed respresentative to the developers. If YOU refuse to accept the be community as being to blame for the unintended results, the BE community will have a voice. If you instead decry the BE community as cheating by accepting the definition of these overpowered creations as "bugged", then we have no representative for the crafting members of the BE community, just another voice that would prefer to see the overpowered pet as the player's doing something wrong, not the system as in need of tuning.
It may see like a subtle difference. I am perfectly willing to accept that there are things about the crafting system that do not work well, or that can produce results the developers never expected. I am NOT willing to accept the BE community being given the blame for those issues, and I hope you can see this difference as well.
LLan
I have never said that anyone who makes these pets is cheating.
I have never called anyone an exploiter for doing so.
I have discouraged the continued practice of making these pets for sale because they will be adjusted in the future and because they are clearly overpowered.
There is also the risk of CSRs taking inappropriate action against the makers and users of these pets.
Just because we're not 'cheating' to make these, doesnt mean they're not bugged.
If you wish to dispute TH's choice of correspondant and would like to nominate a better candidate I'm sure he will listen to your objections.
Message Edited by NancyJ on 05-24-2004 07:13 AM
This post has stoppedbeing constructive, if you have more comments directed at an individual I would recommend taking it to private messages and be civil.
