Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Alts, grinders and dabblers
Gooney wrote:
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:The most predatory thing that I've seen is that there have been a couple of instances where bio-chefs, in addition to the food business, have run advertised side-businesses where they sell schematics for bio-additives to other chefs, which obviously is very damaging to somebody attempting to run an additive business.Im sorry but thats not what is hurting BEs, its the very very simple fact that they do not sell tissues on their vendors or rarely stock them. I have yet to find 1 single example of a reliably stocked BE vendor ever on my server...oh Im sure theres one somewhere I just havent found it, but its not for lack of trying.Personally, I dont care about chef tissues, I need Tailor tissues. It almost common sense that any chef would of necessity have an alt OR a very very tight partnership with a friendly BE. Either one would hurt a reliably stocked BEs sales...if there was such a thing. Chefs simply need far too many additives to run around trying to find them for sale from a BE vendor (did I mention that these pretty much dont exist anyway).BEs are missing a fairly lucrative niche by totally ignoring tissue manufacture. Difficulty wise tailor tissues are far easier to make than an uber pet, and will sell far faster. It takes about 2000 resources to make a crate of tailor tissues, the BE can easily sell that crate for 150k, giving him a huge profit, even if he has to buy a portion of those resources for prices of 50cpu...which is way higher than you would have to pay for tailor tissue resources. Just a little comparison...I cant sell a swoop for more than 3-4CPU, PUs top out at about 8CPU. Im forced to stock a wide variety of product to make my CPU profit lucrative...which is cool because I enjoy that.So Im saying that a BE could make very good money if they just stocked a full range of Advanced Tailor tissues...They dont even have to be uber tissues...due to the cap of +25 most Tailors are forced to use 2 tissues to get there anyhow.It drives me absolutly NUTS to see BEs getting bent out of shape about ALTs or Schems. Its not as if any of you are actually trying to sell anything but 1 single type of food additive on your vendors. I'll say again Im sure theres a BE somewhere on some server that actually stocks more than 1 type of Additive and a few critters... although my personal experiance tends to make me believe that its highly unlikely.BE alts and schematic swaps are the result of nothing more than an acute lack of BEs selling their product. Its a negative feedback loop.-Gooney
Have you ever tried to get hold of 20k of VHQ Domesticated meat? Or maybe 35k of VHQ Milk? That's why we don't make other tissues for Chefs...
As for Tailor tissues...I sell them for 40-65k not 150k...with the exception of Enh Myoflex, for which I pay 200cpu for (81k per crate in costs)
The current market for these resources is changing...Milk and Eggs are now a little easier to find, however.
If you read a thread that I made a while back called 'Why you can't find a BE on your Server' It may explain all this in more detail, but relating primarily to Chef Tissues.
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:
Gooney,
It is a very simple fact, that when I run into a chef that doesn't know me, that chef is 10x more likely to ask me for a schematic then to ask me for tissues.
I have in my posession, the materials needed to make many many runs of super-duper quality chef additives. I have the vendor space to sell them, a nice store to sell them in, I can put them on the global map, and I can advertise them and if I price them at market value, I'm sure they would sell very quickly. But there's just one problem... given the market value of these things, it would be a very very poor decision for me to do that. The sad fact is, that there are far better uses for such materials then wasting them on chef additives. That is just an unfortunate fact.
It's not out of stupidity that many BE's are not selling chef tissues, and I certainly agree with you that there is a relationship between the swapping of schematics and the fact that vendors aren't being stocked, but I think you have the cause and effect backwards imo.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 03-04-2005 09:22 AM
No, Im sure its not out of stupidity, BE isnt an easy Profession. I am however, quite surprised/frustrated that no BEs seem to actually sell the product they can make. Instead, what I see are three types of BEs. One being the oft-lamented Chef Alt. The Second the Dodging BE, and the 3rd the Eager new BE. The Chef alt is a logical extension of the requirements of competitive Chef Food production no need to get into that.
The Dodging BE is the vast majority of BEs who arent Alts. They seem to be in it for the joy of the profession, mostly for making pets or offering their services exclusivly to their PAs/Friends. These BEs have absolutly no interest in creating and fostering a business.
The 3rd type is the Eager, facinated non-master BE. These folks are willing to make tissues but alas cant make the Advanced ones yet. I really appreciate this type an buy from them if and when they stock.
Something seems to happen to them though once they become master...they disappear. This is based on my personal experiance, but they seem to become the Dodging type rather quickly or more often quit being a BE.
All I want to do is find a Good BE and buy tissues. I simply can not believe that getting resources is that big of a problem, at least not for a BE that was interested in building a business. Course it might take a while. How do I know this...well because Ive gathered nearly every resource I need for the tissues I need...
Really Im just annoyed and frustrated. I really have two goals... 1. Is to get the tissues I want, and 2. is to buy them from a real "live" professional BE.
-Gooney
PlainWhiteSocks wrote:
What specific things has BE alts, grinders and dabblers done to make the BE profession as a whole less fun to play?
I would have to answer this question, as it is stated, nothing the grinders, dabblers and alts do make BE less fun for me. The question really doesn't address the issue however. I am not driven by credits and the "value" of fun for me is not measured by how many credits I've made in a given day.
Alts, grinders, and dabblers devalue the BE profession. I read a post that put it very succinctly. A BE alt is not making a profit for a chef. It is the foods the chef sells where the profit is realized. An example,a BE alt crafts a full run of BSN for the chef using high OQ generic carni meat the chef purchased for 50cpu (the ranger was grinding jedi and killed 50 trillion rancors and was happy to unload the meat). The meat alone for the run of tissues is worth 1 million credits. The tissues for the chef is in all reality a net loss or a break even. The chef turns around and makes food and sells the food for buckets of money. It is at this point the chef realizes a profit and this point only. The problem is, a chef doesn't look at the process in its component parts. They look at it as a whole. "I made tissues, turned them into food, and made buckets of money. Why can't you sell me tissues if there is so much money to be made?" This devalues the BE profession.
You can turn that exact same senario on a master ranger alt that supplies a BE main. The profit is in the ranger, not the BE, even though the money is realized when the BE sells the product. The ranger "donates" millions of credits to the BE main in the form of meat. That is the profit. When the BE sells the tissues it is at this point when the ranger donation is realized in the form of credits.
I read where a tailor posted they cannot get a BE to make tissues for them. I can't say that tailor is incorrect on their server. I can say if that tailor were on my server they would have no issue finding a BE that would make tissues for them. Because I can run small lots of tailor tissues my vendor has a variety in stock. You won't find full runs but, as was stated, tailors don't buy full runs. I am infinitely more willing to supply a tailor with product than I am a chef entirely based on volume.
I'll start with an example that is clear in my mind.
Chefs with an alt BE have taken away a market interdependancy from BE players that would otherwise be able to run a profitable tissue business. This limits the options that a "pure" BE player has therefor limits the possible ways that player can have fun in the game.
That is one specific example. I know there are more out there. I'm not looking for why's I'm just looking for who, how and what.
Thanks.
BE is fun for me because I am not driven by credits. If I were driven by credits I would not be a BE. I would be a chef or weaponsmith or armorsmith or ranger/hunter/gatherer.
Gooney wrote:
*hack
The 3rd type is the Eager, facinated non-master BE. These folks are willing to make tissues but alas cant make the Advanced ones yet. I really appreciate this type an buy from them if and when they stock.
Something seems to happen to them though once they become master...they disappear. This is based on my personal experiance, but they seem to become the Dodging type rather quickly or more often quit being a BE.
*slash
-Gooney
I can't say exactly why but I can offer a possible reason. The eager BE is trying to suppliment, or at least mitigate, the expense of climbing bio-engineer. Every product a bio-engineer makes requires meat in one form or another. By the time the eager BE makes it to master they are less willing to mitigate the expense. They want to realize a profit. They disappear because they come to understand BE does not have a large profit margin. An eager player can realize a much higher profit margin by hunting/gathering and selling raw resources to chefs and doctors.
I don't really exclusively fit into any of these categories. I enjoy my profession greatly - especially pets however I do not make anything for my guild, nor do I ignore the server economics. The problem (like Spazzers has said) is that it's just economically viable for me to start one. I could spend my time harvesting resources for tissues but realistically the means doesn't justify the end. I could spend three hours repeating voritor missions getting enough meat for one batch of BSNs. For what? Just so that I can make little to no profit on them? No way. I'm not in BE profession for money but at the same time, I don't want to live like a hobo. I make pets and I sell them. It's not expensive to make and it pays the bills. I have fun in the wild and the CHs thank me for my hard work. Thats reward in itself. That's my business: making people happy.
Gooney wrote:
/*snip
No, Im sure its not out of stupidity, BE isnt an easy Profession. I am however, quite surprised/frustrated that no BEs seem to actually sell the product they can make. Instead, what I see are three types of BEs. One being the oft-lamented Chef Alt. The Second the Dodging BE, and the 3rd the Eager new BE. The Chef alt is a logical extension of the requirements of competitive Chef Food production no need to get into that.
The Dodging BE is the vast majority of BEs who arent Alts. They seem to be in it for the joy of the profession, mostly for making pets or offering their services exclusivly to their PAs/Friends. These BEs have absolutly no interest in creating and fostering a business.
The 3rd type is the Eager, facinated non-master BE. These folks are willing to make tissues but alas cant make the Advanced ones yet. I really appreciate this type an buy from them if and when they stock.
/*snip
Zadokk wrote:
I don't really exclusively fit into any of these categories. I enjoy my profession greatly - especially pets however I do not make anything for my guild, nor do I ignore the server economics. The problem (like Spazzers has said) is that it's just economically viable for me to start one. I could spend my time harvesting resources for tissues but realistically the means doesn't justify the end. I could spend three hours repeating voritor missions getting enough meat for one batch of BSNs. For what? Just so that I can make little to no profit on them? No way. I'm not in BE profession for money but at the same time, I don't want to live like a hobo. I make pets and I sell them. It's not expensive to make and it pays the bills. I have fun in the wild and the CHs thank me for my hard work. Thats reward in itself. That's my business: making people happy.
HEY!! Don't be putting down the hobos. I am in a guild of them. 
I make pets because it's fun as well, must more fun than churning out tissues. That might also explain what happens to BE's when they become masters. They start playing the game for fun instead of profit. Hope that didn't come across too cynical 
Groid wrote:
I am a chef, one of the few remaining original chefs on bria server. I have an alt, and unfortunately, due to the lack of bio engineers willing to make additives in the quantities I need, using MY materials, charging whatever THEY WANT... I could find none to do this. I even offered use of my factories, so I dropped Ranger, and picked up Bio Engineer. I now make my own food additives. I did not take away any business from the bio engineers, as they did not want to make chef additives. I have yet to make a single pet or tissue and doubt if I will.
On bria, it seems it is easier to find a +25 food experiment tape than it is to find a bio engineer, at least that is MY opinion.
Too bad we chefs cant make any cheese to go with your whine.
Mokianna
You should read Smokingfrog's post. You might realize why you can't find a BE that will grind out additives for you. It isn't a whole lot of fun. If you made a pet or two you might come to see just how much fun that side of BE is. If I want to make tissues I make them...when I want to. I make tailor tissues because I don't have to make them enmass and I don't feel tied to my factory. I'm glad you found a compromise that works for you.
Perhaps you should drink some whine to take that bitterness out of your mouth. Just a thought.
Gooney wrote:
The Tailor on the other hand does not. The tailor also doesnt need 50 crates at a time, more like 2. It is exceedingly difficult to get a BE to manufacture Tailor tissues. So Tailors, tend to gather the resources they need then get the BE to make them a schematic.
The BE gets upset because hes losing business when the Tailor makes the tissues himself. Of course most Tailors I know (myself included) would much rather just buy already made crates of tissues...but NO BE Ive everseen STOCKS THEM. Ive contacted several BEs to make me crates of tissues, explaining that I will happily pay what ever they will charge just so I can get the tissues. I did find one BE vendor that had a few mediocre Tailor tissues, I bought them, and another which only had Medical tissues 150k per crate of 25. Thats expensive as heck, but I bought em anyhow.
So finally I said screw it and started gathering my own resources...wading in the mud to collect 2k moullusk meat isnt a picnic. Ive got orders to a half dozen other hunters for HQ hides and what not, hopefully Ill have enough resources for all the Advance Tissues in a day or two.
Then you know what Im going to do...something Ive tried like hell to avoid. Ill go to my PAs Chef, he has a BE alt, and get him to make me schematics.
Ive tried I really have, I made seperate orders with BEs knowing full well that the likelyhood that they will fill my order is about nill. So Im giving up. Going to the Alt. He offered to do this for me months ago but I foolishly it seems wanted to find a real BE and give him the business.
I'll say it again, Id happily buy crates of decent Tailor tissues if I could find em, but Im tired of searching empty or near empty BE tissue vendors.
-Gooney
It's too bad you aren't on Starsider. I pride myself on being the only (as far as I know) BE on Starsider to regularily have a stock of tailor tissues. Believe it or not making Tailor tissues is one of my favorite things because it is really a challenge to accumulate all the necessary resources and then the pressure of keeping it stocked at all times. I've enjoyed a ton of business from over 15 tailors (5 very loyal repeat customers that buy crates like crazy) and it is actually very profitable. A little info..The lowest I sell my tissues for is 50k a crate (no less than +13 stats)and the highest I've gone is 65k (+15 Enhanced Myoflex). I always have Enhanced Myoflex, Tensile Resistance (just made a full 40-crate run of +4/+18) and Active Biosensors. The other main tissues are a bit harder to stock (but also sell less) and I make those as I get the resources.
Here's a few thoughts on why BE's stray away from tailor tissues..
Obviously the biggest one is the harder to get and specific resources many things take to make. On top of that BE's think Chef and Tailor components are similar in that Chefs won't buy anything less than 40 identical crates. They think that Tailors won't buy a couple of crates and that there is no profit margin in only selling a few crates at a time. This couldn't be further from the truth.. Honestly.. I buy most of my resources that go into tailor tissues from the bazaar. Each day I'm checking it tons of times for stuff and can usually find what I need. Anyway.. It might just be me but I find tailor tissues more exciting to make than chef additives.