Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Chef components.. Maybe Im not getting it?
Dsabre,
I always value your level-headed approach to these things, but in this case I don't think you are right about why BE's are seen as less-than-valuable when it comes to chefs. The assertion below though I don'thappen to agree with. In fact the only inter-dependency relationship that I'm aware of that has created such contention is between BE's and chefs. Every other one has either been met by at wost indifference, or at best, peaceful harmony. And a chef who is willing to fork over $15 a month extra, and spend countless hours and in-game funds grinding up the BE skill tree is very unlikely to be deterred by a more complex experimentation system (particularly when it mimics one that they already use).
BE's tailor tissues are no more/less challenging to make than chef tissues yet there is no contention between BE's and tailors. Doctor's subcomponents used by both combat medics and bio engineers also require only the simplest of experimentation yet we seelittle contention between those classes either. Trim, synthetic cloth, and reinforced fiber panels made by tailors that require no experimentation at all and are used by chefs, armorsmiths, doctors, and architects and again I've seen little contention there either.
So what is the difference here? Two things I think. One big difference is that most of the interdependency relationships feature a circumstance where either:
a) the supplying class is supplying subcomponents that they already use in the course of making their own products. Thus they are already harvesting the materials and making them whether or not they are selling them, they already have a value built-into them that is governed by their use in products that class already makes, and so they are free to choose whether to sell/use them. Examples of this are doctors supplying bio engineers and combat medics, armorsmiths supplying droid engineers, or tailors supplying chefs, architects, doctors, and armorsmiths.
b) the supplying class is supplying some very low cost, low effort, item that is far down in the skill tree, and makes up a fairly insignificant portion of their business. This is the case for example armorsmiths and weaponsmiths supplying smuggler tools (ok, not technically a subcomponent, but may as well be).
In short, supplying the components is not a fundamental part of the supplier's business. Bio engineers are the exception to the above rules. These are high level items for us, representing a substantial amount of our overall "bag of tricks" that we can make and we do not use them in our own products.
Oh, and the second thing is that chefs are just, um, how do I say this diplomatically? um, different. Yea, that's it.
Anyhow, to "fix" this from a bio engineer's perspective, imho, they should do one of two things. Either make new products for bio engineers to make that require these same subcomponents and that there is a decent demand for. Then bio engineers will be cranking out additives and a chef can buy or not buy at a "reasonable" price and there will be no contention. Or they should add some "real" products for bio engineers that don't require these components, allow us to focus on that, and make the components require like one-tenth of the materials that they do now, and make the making of components just a very small part of our business that we can take or leave without us feeling like we're giving up a huge part of our class' usefulness should we decide not to make them.
Dsabre wrote:
think about it...the only hotly contested subcomponents which are used in profession interdependency are ones that don't require any experimentation...or ones that only have 1 line to experiment in.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 11-17-2004 11:19 AM
Reptilian_Greenskin wrote:
Arthur,
Now that's not really true that bivoli takes about the same ingrediants as a BSN, a bivoli without an additive does, but then you have to add in an intelligent which over doubles the requirements meaning it will always cost AT LEAST double what an Intelligent should go for.
ArthurDentOnBria wrote:Dsabre,
I always value your level-headed approach to these things, but in this case I don't think you are right about why BE's are seen as less-than-valuable when it comes to chefs. The assertion below though I don't happen to agree with. In fact the only inter-dependency relationship that I'm aware of that has created such contention is between BE's and chefs. Every other one has either been met by at wost indifference, or at best, peaceful harmony. And a chef who is willing to fork over $15 a month extra, and spend countless hours and in-game funds grinding up the BE skill tree is very unlikely to be deterred by a more complex experimentation system (particularly when it mimics one that they already use).
BE's tailor tissues are no more/less challenging to make than chef tissues yet there is no contention between BE's and tailors. Doctor's subcomponents used by both combat medics and bio engineers also require only the simplest of experimentation yet we see little contention between those classes either. Trim, synthetic cloth, and reinforced fiber panels made by tailors that require no experimentation at all and are used by chefs, armorsmiths, doctors, and architects and again I've seen little contention there either.
good points too, but here's some other things to add into the mix:
as for mimicing the existing chef system...well that is true in a sense, but there really isn't anything anyone can do about those with multiple alts to support a main...well there are a few things SOE can do...but nothing within reason (and no I won't say what they could do in fear that they may actually do it...).
a lot of chefs prior to the chef revamp could use high quality subcomps to make up for not so great resources...so an intelligent chef with good resources could outdo a not so intelligent chef with great/uber resources. theres something about needing to calculate 2 steps that gives a lot of people a difficult time.
a prime example would be the old alchohol system...if you could figure out a better way to make your alchohol subcomponents...even if another chef had better resources for BoH...they still couldn't beat ones made with superior subcomps...and only 1 or 2 chefs per server really understood how to make good subcomps even though there were similar lines as the final combine itself had.
even with ws's there are some that find ways to outdo their fellow ws's by making their subcomps in a way which gives them a more valuable/interesting/different weapon. even though the systems for subcomp and final combine are fairly similar...that extra step can also be used to hide modifiers, etc. to make things more interesting.
other things that may need to be factored in to the other professions that make subcomps...
1) all but 1 needed tailor subcomponent doesn't need a master, and often doesn't even require an entire line, so its very easy to dabble.
2) doc subcomps are actually in the medic line, which BE's, docs, and CM's are forced to take...so I'd put those in as more of a pseudo interdependency subcomp. while yes you can make them yourself...unless you have all 10 exp (or 12) points it won't be as good.
3) tailor tissues need some difficult to obtain resources...mollusk, egg...milk...not exactly stuff that everyone (or even anyone) is willing to harvest. whereas the meat (carnivore or any other kind) requirement for chef tissues is much easier to harvest, and a lot more people are willing to do it. so theres not as much of a convenience factor involved in chef tissues as with tailor tissues.
a lot of armorsmiths have enough tailor to make their own RFP's, and with the exception of wookie armor will never actually need a master tailor....and on that same note...chefs don't need one either as getting trim only takes another 11 or so sp's.
theres also the type of player who chooses tailor/doc...tailors are mostly socially oriented players, caring more about socializing than making millions of credits. I think docs may be too busy bickering amongst themselves and with hunters over the astronomical prices of avian meat (regardless of its difficulty to harvest).
and as was brought up in previous posts on this topic...there is also the stigma attached to making subcomponents (schematic monkey) as being less prestigious, and valuable.
well at any rate, I would still like to see tissue experimentation become more "complicated" as it would definately add a "competition" aspect to tissues (similar to hey look at this awesome pet I made types of things)...and the quality (or intelligence) of the BE would really make a difference.
even if chefs could still make alts to do the BE work...at the very least BE's would have a wider variety of chef tissues they could make in sufficient quantities to sell...and might take away from the tedium of making the same old thing over and over and over again (with 1-3 extra points after maxing out that 1 line)
and to go with Arthur's suggestion...why not allow BE tissues for chefs/tailors to have some kind of "effect" on pets?
maybe have some types grant a particular special attack at certain power levels, and others could maybe help to add light armor (or even medium armor...well maybe not with the CU coming). ranged attack, extra resists...perhaps even some extra ham or a decreased cl...limited to 1 "enhancer" per pet final combine.
and as a final kicker...since many BE's enjoy the "mystery" aspect of the current pet system...the devs shouldn't tell the BE community what each one will do, and it shouldn't be listed on the tissue either...let the BE's figure it out...it'll probably be more fun that way too.
1. Chef can't make anything without BE additives. I know they can make non-enhanced food/drink, but let's be real, that won't sell. A tailor can make regular clothes.
2. Because of number 1, chef's require much larger volume from BE than other proffessions. I myself used to ask for 3 runs of BSN and 3 runs of Intelligents at a time and usually 1 micronutrient.
Taking number 1 and 2 together, make it so that a chef that doesn't pick up BE is at a serious disadvantage to those that do. They have to charge a lot more for the same product to make the same profit, they can't control how quickly they can make anything (well i know you want some more brandy, but i have to wait for BE to come back from his weekend trip away, or I have to wait for him to collect the meat neccessary to make me another run).
Unfortunately to stay competitive now in the chef market, you have to pick up BE to make the additives yourself otherwise you will always be undercut by the chef's with BE.
The only way i can see to make the relationship work as intended is to decrease the amount of resources that goes into each additive. With the decreased amount of resources many chefs won't think it's a must to pick up BE to make the additives themselves. And the one's that do keep BE, won't be at as much of an advantage due to the decrease in cost to produce
Message Edited by Reptilian_Greenskin on 11-18-2004 09:32 AM
Message Edited by Bonestein on 11-19-2004 01:49 PM