Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Concerns about the upcoming DE changes.
HaggisofAhazi wrote:
High level artisan items require special components that only a Master Artisan can craft. That will force DE's to either buy the whole skill tree or buy special components from a Master Artisan (sound kind of like BE's, huh?).
yea i thought about this too, but compare the two:
a completely self-sufficient MDE who will be able to use his creations in combat and collect/make his own resources/components and use all his products:
-Master DE
-Master Artisan
to contrast, a completely self-sufficient MBE who can use his creations andcollect/make his own resources/components and use all his products (impossible):
-Master BE
-Master CH
-Artisan - Survey Line (for resources)
-Master Scout (for Ranger)
-Ranger - Camoflauge Line (for DNA)
-Master Medic (for Doc)
-Doctor - Chemistry Line (chem components)
-Master Tailor
-Master Chef
not much of a comparison is it?
man, its really discouraging to take the time to address something and bring it to the comunity and someone just tries to blindlytear it.
If anything it just means we're being pushed out of the non-ch market although pets have special moves which allows them to exceed their CL rating however I doubt that many non-ch's will be smart enough to realise that droids are limited to theirmaxmimum CL since they have no specials.
droids may or may not have special attacks (not addressed), but they WILL have different "combatmodes," different adjustable combat ranges/weapons, andthey will usedifferenttactics vsdifferent types of enemies. "Read the report."
Thus they are just as combat effective as the people they sell the droids to.
onlyspeculation. to say that there would be no sort of cert system is just silly.
As mentioned before droids are superior in their raw power and defence however they cannot fight higher than their CL rating or cause status effects. This isn't assumption, this is the way ALL droids in the game are at the moment. Even the wild ones. Pets though can fight higher than their rating which is evident by the fact a Guf Drolg can clobber a CL15 cowardly gurreck simply because the c.gurreck has no specials justlike a droid.
again, pure speculation. you are basing this on how droids function now rather than how they will be developed, and if im not mistaken droidekas have a bleed attack (could be wrong, but pretty sure). Regardless of that, you are forgetting about a) armor and b) the admitted fact that CL's of creatures are not accurate (which is why they are being reviewed and altered now). "Read the revised CH changes"
...they're back to using 3 pets at master however they will no longer get x2 or x3 exp from using multiple pets at the same time. In effect the called pets are considered as only being one pet by the exp system. Judging from this they will not be able to have all 3 pets plus a droid active as that would be the equivilent of having a second pet around which is against the rules.
Aside from reapeating what i said (3 pets)and mentioning CH experience for some reason, you seem to be guessing that as a CH with active creature pets will not be allowed to have a non-creature pet out in addition to their +active pets skillmod (wich is what actually detetmines active pets), whichhasnt been specifically addressed yet andis essentially the exact concern i was addressing, only in regards to both CH and DE being treated equally in this respect.
The fact that the droids can heal the player and each other is besides the point as only ONE combat droid is active at any one time. The healing droids might be attacked if you recall since the Ai changes take note of one entity healing another. The droids which heal and repair will also use stims and those comsumable items mentioned so they will need refreshing at some point. There might be no drain to the players mind pool but then again the healing droid cannot defend itself.
TH: "(about healers/pets' masters being attacked) Basically the same thing will happen as if you were grouped with a pet and attacked, only now it will happen even when youre not grouped"
Yes droids will use consumeable items and need to be recharged, but who makes the consumeable items? And no maybe the healing droid cant defend itself, shucks.. well its a good thing the DE has a combat droid and enough skillpoints to master an elite combat profession!
Ultimately I think you haven't kept up to date on current events in all of the effected professions and you certainly haven't looked at this from all angles.
im sorry you feel that way. maybe if you had taken the time to actually read my post instead of trying to find silly ways to twist it you would have noticed that i mentioned these are only concerns that i have about how these changes might affect us and they would not be a problem at all if the devs do it right.
man, im sorry but this is just ridiculous.
Droids may or may not have special attacks (not addressed), but they WILL have different "combatmodes," different adjustable combat ranges/weapons, andthey will usedifferenttactics vsdifferent types of enemies. "Read the report."
Very true, but given at how none of the droids in the game currently have any special attacks is it not reasonable to expect that trend to continue. Indeed as dumb as SOE is they realise that pets and droids need to each be marketable.
onlyspeculation. to say that there would be no sort of cert system is just silly....again, pure speculation. you are basing this on how droids function now rather than how they will be developed,
This whole topic is speculation, the point is to try and build speculation on current facts as that is how you end up with more likely solutions. Do you know for sure how they will function? Do I know? No we don't.
Regardless of that, you are forgetting about a) armor and b) the admitted fact that CL's of creatures are not accurate (which is why they are being reviewed and altered now).
Correct, so why are you concerned about the situation when there is so much being changed anyway when we dunno how they intend to rebalance everything?
Yes droids will use consumeable items and need to be recharged, but who makes the consumeable items? And no maybe the healing droid cant defend itself, shucks.. well its a good thing the DE has a combat droid and enough skillpoints to master an elite combat profession!
I fail to see how functionality will cut into our market, pets do one thing.. droids do another. As for overpowering it's very possible but it still doesn't effect the bio-engineer market. I think your putting far too much faith into the DEs abilities on the whole, so they can have a combat droid and a normal droid active at the same time. And they can have a mastery in combat. They also have a very very narrow market for only pets. Let them have a perk for gods sake. If this is about the fact BE needs alot of skills points then I'd argue it's because we have several markets unlike the droid engineers.
i mentioned these are only concerns that i have about how these changes might affect us and they would not be a problem at all if the devs do it right.... man, im sorry but this is just ridiculous.
Well what you started here was a speculative topic about a incomplete set of proposals based on a broken professions in the midst of a total revisal of the CL rating and Ai system for the game. Thanks for voicing your concerns but don't say I'm wrong because I'm speculating as well. I said you didn't look at this from all angles and the fact you through my opinion out of the window based on the fact it's an assumption goes to prove that. Your just hung up over the fact I said you didn't read the issues completely, ok fair enough based on your second reply it seems you have so I appologise but in your first post you didn't make it clear you'd included all of the facts in your reasoning.
"ONLY Droid Engineers will be able to make and use these modules"
Taking that at exactly what it mentions it says that the modules for the droids will only be made and used by them, it doesn't refer to the droids themselves actually being ONLY for the droid engineers. Since the droids appear to be more customizable it appears from that text that if someone wants to change the combat droids mode, range ect.. then they need to take them to a droid engineer. That would make perfect sense.
If it did mean that only DEs can use combat droids then why doesn't it say "ONLY droid engineers will be able to use combat droids" ? I agree that this text is not phrased very well but it certainly does not say combat droids are limited to DEs in the long run. Where is the logic in it? The DEs asked for more marketability and they're turned into a droid version of the CH? No, that is very unlikely in the extreme.
Thanks for voicing your concerns but don't say I'm wrong because I'm speculating as well. I said you didn't look at this from all angles and the fact you through my opinion out of the window based on the fact it's an assumption goes to prove that.
when did i say you were wrong?
i said it was ridiculous - that someone would actually make such a condescending reply ("Read this, read that, you obviosly havent kept up with current events") to a post that was obviosly intended only to inform the community about something coming up they may not have been aware of and voice some of the *possible* things that could come out of it if it isnt handled properly.
you didnt supply any new information or support here, all you did was pick apart select peices of my original post looking for things to correct. you didnt present any real reason not to have those concerns, you argued against my concerns about what might happen not by simply speculating otherwise, you presented youropinions as if they were obvious facts ("Not going to happen... ", "players will just have a pet and a combat droid", i could quote the whole post here...) just to contradict ralistic problems that could come out of this. i didnt throw out your opinion, you didnt even argue the matter at hand - that these are possible outcomes of the changes and we should be aware of it. your only points were that some of my pointswere wrong or misinformed (which they werent). theres no way to deny that the devs could possibly screw it up and any of these things could happen.
Your just hung up over the fact I said you didn't read the issues completely, ok fair enough based on your second reply it seems you have so I appologise but in your first post you didn't make it clear you'd included all of the facts in your reasoning.
actual text from my first post:
because of the "newness" of combat droids they have a potential to draw tons of people and this could severely limit our market (much more than the CH changes ever could) and render us essentially useless if proper care isnt taken to make sure it is done in a balanced way.
i thought that was clear enough but i guess not. i wasnt trying to explore every angle, i was considering what could go wrong. simple enough, no?
no im not just hung up because you were rude enough to tell me that i dont know what im talking about, its just ridiculous that someone would make such a condescending post that was obviosly only intended to contradict, not inform or discuss, and this isnt the first time youve done it ("throwing away" my constructive tissue sugestions because it was "impossible" to write fiction for them? give me a break!). its also not the first time youve vocally questioned my credibility - "i would evenwelcome S0F be the correspondent at this point" um..? "i dont often agree with S0F", it goes on and on. arent we beyond those kind of underhanded comments at this age?
i never said you were wrong and i have been very civil towards you, the fact that you are now trying to make itsound like i was the one trashing youropinions is just silly.
that being said, i dont hold grudges.
as for the quote: "ONLY Droid Engineers will be able to make and use these modules."
this obviously means that only DE's will be able to use combat droids. when you call a droid and start crafting arent you using its crafting module? when you call a droid and store a schematic in it, areny you using its data storage module? maybe droids with combat modules can be used by non-DE, but that doesnt mean they will actually be able to use them in combat, they may be able to use other modules installed in the droid, BUT as per the quote - only DE will be able to use[combat] modules.
you dont honestly think that this meant "only DE will be able to craft combat droids" do you? lol
(you would think that would go without saying) you silly goose!
im not saying that non-DE wont be able to use combat droids, all im saying is that in the original plan posted thats obviously what they meant.
SOF said:
"to contrast, a completely self-sufficient MBE who can use his creations andcollect/make his own resources/components and use all his products (impossible):"
(...and then lists all of our options.)
Yeah, it's a double edged sword, isn't it? So many options, but we can't master them all. But that's the beauty of it too. I personally like a little crafting, a little combatand a little exploring. BE/CH fits me well. It gives me a decent chance to do all three solo, and makes me pretty effective in a group too. The only thing that I miss not having a chance to do with that combo is mastering Ranger. But that's the beauty of this game. If I eventually tire of my choices I can always try some others.
Haggis
"ONLY Droid Engineers can make and use these modules."
Of course, they are the only ones who can make Droid Modules, much like only an armorsmith can make an adv composite armor segment and using a module consitutes placing it in a droid (deed), much like only an armorsmith can use the segments to make armor. But anyone can use a droid or armor.
Master Dragger, Drunken FriarOrlander said:
"kindaq funny. they doing or trying to do the changes to CH because of balance. I can see them surpised when the Master CH/DE class comes out and they they want to nerf that."
CH/DE Plan 1: Without taking Master Artisan that would cost 198 skill points. The DE would still need to acquire high level components froman MA. If they pick up a weapon too they'll spend another 29 points for a total of 227. They'll probably want to put another 9 points into Business so they can at least put up a vending machine in one of their buildings. The rest would probably go into Surveying for an even 250.
Pros: Multiple pets out for masters as both tanks and support.
Cons: No medical. Low weapon skills. Reliance on MA for high level components. Reliance on pet(s) for combat. High component cost for droids.
CH/DE Plan 2: Master CH, MA and DE for 242 skill points. 8 points left are not enough for weapons, so they'd probably go into unused Scout skills.
Pros: No reliance on MA.
Cons: No medical. No weapon skills. Complete reliance on pet(s) for combat. High component cost for droids.
So...Plan 1 is more flexible, but would still require some interdepencance with MA's. Still not a lot of weapon skills available unless the CH/DE completely gimped themselves on Surveying and opted not to sell through a vendor. That would make sales much tougher and harvester moves a much bigger hassle.
All in all, I'd say these are pretty similar to the compromises a BE/CH has to make, except that BE's have the added bonus of basic medical skills.
Haggis
i was kiddning when i said that, i didnt think anyone was actually silly enough to think that it meant that "only DE will be able to make combat droids." thats the most ridiculous statement ive ever heard. LOL
its even being discussed as we speak on the DE forums how they dont want iot to be obly DE's because that would bring an unwanted element to their profession. didnt i say that?
cripes, some ppl just need it spelled out for them 