Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Interesting conversation on GCW changes in the In Development forum
Page 1 of 3
Fion13
Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:48 pm
#1
Haha welcome to my world gImp! 
What I am concerned about is opposing faction NPC's killing you on sight if your not 'on leave'. Leaving me to hope, especially being a rebel who hardly any combat skill) that going 'on leave' can be near perminant. I mean, who in there right mind thinks everyone who supports the rebelion is also on the front lines? Same for the empire. You think the guys who made the AT-ST's in the battle of hoth were also the ones driving them?
What I am concerned about is opposing faction NPC's killing you on sight if your not 'on leave'. Leaving me to hope, especially being a rebel who hardly any combat skill) that going 'on leave' can be near perminant. I mean, who in there right mind thinks everyone who supports the rebelion is also on the front lines? Same for the empire. You think the guys who made the AT-ST's in the battle of hoth were also the ones driving them?
PlainWhiteSocks
Thu Feb 10, 2005 6:12 pm
#2
Fion13 wrote:
Haha welcome to my world gImp!
What I am concerned about is opposing faction NPC's killing you on sight if your not 'on leave'. Leaving me to hope, especially being a rebel who hardly any combat skill) that going 'on leave' can be near perminant. I mean, who in there right mind thinks everyone who supports the rebelion is also on the front lines? Same for the empire. You think the guys who made the AT-ST's in the battle of hoth were also the ones driving them?
You think that because the AT-AT builders were not on the front lines that they were not involved?
If the rebelion could find the place that built the AT-AT's they would bomb it. Would they wait for the workers there to get off shift before they did? Maybe, maybe not. In either case the builders were involved in the effort to eliminate the rebelion. If your in the front lines or in the rear supporting the front lines makes no diference.
This is a war. If you stand up and declare your allegience for one side or the other, then your enemies are going to shoot at you with the intent to kill. Should have been this way all along, for both sides.
Fion13
Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:09 am
#3
Yea lets go kill every Iraqi that worked for Sadam too while we are at it.
Oh no? That kind of a stupid thing to do? We wouldn't just slaughter his buttler? What about the guy who cut his hair? Or his maids.
Obviously I'm not serious, but I'm trying to show a point. Not everyone involved in a war is on the front lines. In the movies did the stormtroopers see some random bothan walk into bestine and go 'hey look it's a rebel! KILL KILL KILL!'
I get attacked, I get searched. I get revealed as a rebel. I live with it because yes, it's a war and we rebels should be doing the same thing. But I am so amazed how few people seem to grasp the concept that not everyone who is in a war is on the front lines. In the same token as above I disagreed with why we invaded Iraq, so that must mean I should be off trying to shoot our marines ah? No.. I support them even though I disagreed with why we went there. I SUPPORT OUR TEAM. You could see me making M1A2 tanks in support of them. But you wouldn't see me driving that tank into enemy lines. Sure the plant I am working in could get bombed one day, I take that risk. Likewise in the game I have an equal risk of being exposed and attacked, but I shouldn't as a non-combatant expect to give up my RP'd beliefs simply because I cant handle being slaughtered by the roaving bands of ST's that are all over tat. What exactly is so hard to understand here?
I'm tired of arguing my and others point here when obviously some people cant grasp it, even the devs seam to think non-combatants need to go civilian or shut our mouths. I guess I'll just move to cnet and leave the rebel only guild I founded 4 years ago so I don't have to worry about playing a game where I am constantly being attacked just because I support the rebel cause.
Oh no? That kind of a stupid thing to do? We wouldn't just slaughter his buttler? What about the guy who cut his hair? Or his maids.
Obviously I'm not serious, but I'm trying to show a point. Not everyone involved in a war is on the front lines. In the movies did the stormtroopers see some random bothan walk into bestine and go 'hey look it's a rebel! KILL KILL KILL!'
I get attacked, I get searched. I get revealed as a rebel. I live with it because yes, it's a war and we rebels should be doing the same thing. But I am so amazed how few people seem to grasp the concept that not everyone who is in a war is on the front lines. In the same token as above I disagreed with why we invaded Iraq, so that must mean I should be off trying to shoot our marines ah? No.. I support them even though I disagreed with why we went there. I SUPPORT OUR TEAM. You could see me making M1A2 tanks in support of them. But you wouldn't see me driving that tank into enemy lines. Sure the plant I am working in could get bombed one day, I take that risk. Likewise in the game I have an equal risk of being exposed and attacked, but I shouldn't as a non-combatant expect to give up my RP'd beliefs simply because I cant handle being slaughtered by the roaving bands of ST's that are all over tat. What exactly is so hard to understand here?
I'm tired of arguing my and others point here when obviously some people cant grasp it, even the devs seam to think non-combatants need to go civilian or shut our mouths. I guess I'll just move to cnet and leave the rebel only guild I founded 4 years ago so I don't have to worry about playing a game where I am constantly being attacked just because I support the rebel cause.
Message Edited by Fion13 on 02-11-2005 02:14 AM
Message Edited by Fion13 on 02-11-2005 02:16 AM
Halthron
Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:48 am
#4
There's a difference between disagreeing and "not being able to grasp your point". It sounds like your point has been grasped and some just disagree with your opinion.
Fion13 wrote:
I'm tired of arguing my and others point here when obviously some people cant grasp it, even the devs seam to think non-combatants need to go civilian or shut our mouths. I guess I'll just move to cnet and leave the rebel only guild I founded 4 years ago so I don't have to worry about playing a game where I am constantly being attacked just because I support the rebel cause.
ArthurDentOnBria
Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:49 am
#5
It's not that people don't grasp it, I just think they don't happen to agree with it is all. Everyone has a slightly (or maybe not so slightly) different idea of what the game "should be like" or how they'd like to play it. It seems to me like you'd be happiest just staying as a rebel covert and being "permenently on leave" which is an option you'll have. No biggie.
Fion13 wrote:
I'm tired of arguing my and others point here when obviously some people cant grasp it, even the devs seam to think non-combatants need to go civilian or shut our mouths. I guess I'll just move to cnet and leave the rebel only guild I founded 4 years ago so I don't have to worry about playing a game where I am constantly being attacked just because I support the rebel cause.
Hylidex
Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:31 am
#6
The major changes that would affect us as primary crafters are:
Imperial Crackdown-style scans will now be done by Rebel teams, too.
Planetary police (Cor-Sec's, RSF, etc.) will also be doing scans. They will expose players who are on-leave (essentially covert) from their faction and attack if the opposing faction controls the city. Cantinas will be raided frequently.
Certain cities (Coronet, Bela Vistal, Theed, Moienia, Anchorhead, and Bestine) will be permanently under control of one faction. Other NPC cities will be under the control of the faction winning the GCW for that planet.
Being factioned in space will now make you part of the same faction on the ground.
There will be two styles of bases, one designed for PvP and one for PvE. Both will require the traditional method of bringing down a base (that requires a BE). There is some degree of complaint about this, since BE's are relatively rare.
---
If you are Imperial and a primary crafting BE without a combat mastery, this will essentially put you in the same postition as the rebel crafters have been in through the Imperial Crackdown--ie., getting scanned, identified, and killed frequently by NPC's who appear nonaggressive on radar. You may want to take steps to minimize the damage, such as not carrying your crafting tools or other decayable items around in inventory andnot carrying spices, sliced weapons etc., which may make scans more likely. With the new faction status system, even being identified will only make you vulnerable to NPC attacks, not player attacks (unlike the current system where a scan turns you overt.) Being neutral won't prevent you from being scanned or fined, but it should keep you from being killed if you do not attempt to run.
If you select a combatant (PvE enabled, but PvP disabled) status, opposing faction NPCs will appear red on radar and shoot on sight. If you spend a lot of time in an area with a large number of nonaggressive creatures or NPC's, this may be the best option, since they will at least be avoidable. Planetary police patrols will still most likely appear yellow, however.
The other new status is Special Forces (PvP enabled, more or less the same as overt now.)
Zadokk
Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:46 am
#7
Fion13 wrote:
I'm tired of arguing my and others point here when obviously some people cant grasp it, even the devs seam to think non-combatants need to go civilian or shut our mouths. I guess I'll just move to cnet and leave the rebel only guild I founded 4 years ago so I don't have to worry about playing a game where I am constantly being attacked just because I support the rebel cause.
Stop being facetious and listen to the flaw in your logic. I will break it down for you:
- The empire is controlling force of the galaxy.
- They say "Don't join the rebellion, they are terrorists and anyonewho is or associatedwith a terrorist will either be arrested or shot on sight" (the latter applies because you cannot be arrested in this game)
- YOU ARE PART OF THE REBELLION
- YOU ARE HELPING TERRORISTS
- THEREFORE YOU WILL BE SHOT ON SIGHT.
No one is making you leave your guild. No one is making you leave your faction. You must accept that being part of a faction has its consequences. The consequences are for joining the rebellion is that STs will occassionaly shoot you. You have armour, you have burstrun and you have synthsteak. All three of these will give you enough time to RUN which is whatthe devsrecommend for people who cannot fight. Do not be a defeatist and say "oh well I've been found out" and just sit there. Rebels are supposed to be secretive and in hiding and they are supposed to choose their battles. I suggest that if you are a rebel crafter, you act like one.
PlainWhiteSocks
Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:41 am
#8
oh boy. I knew it would go like this. Sometimes I think I should take away my keyboard privileges.
Fion, I got your point the first time you posted. I too am a pure crafting rebel. I will be hit every bit as hard as you with these changes to the GCW. Perhaps even more so, because my guild will be unable to help me. I simply have a different perspective on the whole thing though. I know the risks involved with being in a faction. I choose to pay the price.
This is obviously a very emotional subject for you. You have put a great deal of effort, time, and I would say heart into your guild, and the people there. Your vehemence on this subject is clear evidence as such. My responses to your posts were an attempt to point out what I saw as a flaw in your logic, and an interpretation of what the Devs have said about the changes. Obviously I have done a poor job in conveying my thoughts to you. Now I have inadvertently caused more trouble and headache to everyone. I'll not continue to try to get my point across to you for it will do neither of us any good. Suffice it to say, I’m not in disagreement with you. And that, above all else is the most frustrating thing in this whole affair.
Fion, I got your point the first time you posted. I too am a pure crafting rebel. I will be hit every bit as hard as you with these changes to the GCW. Perhaps even more so, because my guild will be unable to help me. I simply have a different perspective on the whole thing though. I know the risks involved with being in a faction. I choose to pay the price.
This is obviously a very emotional subject for you. You have put a great deal of effort, time, and I would say heart into your guild, and the people there. Your vehemence on this subject is clear evidence as such. My responses to your posts were an attempt to point out what I saw as a flaw in your logic, and an interpretation of what the Devs have said about the changes. Obviously I have done a poor job in conveying my thoughts to you. Now I have inadvertently caused more trouble and headache to everyone. I'll not continue to try to get my point across to you for it will do neither of us any good. Suffice it to say, I’m not in disagreement with you. And that, above all else is the most frustrating thing in this whole affair.
Fion13
Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:25 pm
#9
Yes, this change bothers the hell out of me, if that isn't apparent lmao.
"- The empire is controlling force of the galaxy.
- They say "Don't join the rebellion, they are terrorists and anyone who is or associated with a terrorist will either be arrested or shot on sight" (the latter applies because you cannot be arrested in this game)
- YOU ARE PART OF THE REBELLION
- YOU ARE HELPING TERRORISTS
- THEREFORE YOU WILL BE SHOT ON SIGHT."
1: Agree
2: I know
3: YEP
4: Eh hem.. freedom fighters
5: If they discover I am a rebel they already do this. Must be this patch is giving them some new automatic rebel detection device ah?
I suppose your right, it's not that people arent able to get what I'm saying, they just disagree. Although it's obvious the post agrees with me, as he is about to be put into the situation all non-combatant rebs have been in the last year. What I am trying to convey is that for over a year and a half it has been entirely possible to be a pure crafter and join a faction. Yes for rebels it was a bit of a pain but I was actually FOR the imp crackdown. But honestly, this game was designed to give people who didn't want to hunt constantly, a way to advance in a RP or non-combatant way. Anyone else here remember pre-release when the devs went out of their way to show that point? How bout the point raised by them several times within the last 6 months... that crafters would have a role to play in the CGW? Guess the devs just decided to throw that part of the game out the window ah?
As to on leave, from what I understand it is a temporary thing. If I can go perminantly on leave but still be suseptable to scans, I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm just not fine with pure crafters being squeezed out of something they have been able to be a part of for over a year and a half now.. thats it. That is my point. It's more then obvious that most seem to disagree with that, including the devs, and yes it upsets me.
"- The empire is controlling force of the galaxy.
- They say "Don't join the rebellion, they are terrorists and anyone who is or associated with a terrorist will either be arrested or shot on sight" (the latter applies because you cannot be arrested in this game)
- YOU ARE PART OF THE REBELLION
- YOU ARE HELPING TERRORISTS
- THEREFORE YOU WILL BE SHOT ON SIGHT."
1: Agree
2: I know
3: YEP
4: Eh hem.. freedom fighters
5: If they discover I am a rebel they already do this. Must be this patch is giving them some new automatic rebel detection device ah?
I suppose your right, it's not that people arent able to get what I'm saying, they just disagree. Although it's obvious the post agrees with me, as he is about to be put into the situation all non-combatant rebs have been in the last year. What I am trying to convey is that for over a year and a half it has been entirely possible to be a pure crafter and join a faction. Yes for rebels it was a bit of a pain but I was actually FOR the imp crackdown. But honestly, this game was designed to give people who didn't want to hunt constantly, a way to advance in a RP or non-combatant way. Anyone else here remember pre-release when the devs went out of their way to show that point? How bout the point raised by them several times within the last 6 months... that crafters would have a role to play in the CGW? Guess the devs just decided to throw that part of the game out the window ah?
As to on leave, from what I understand it is a temporary thing. If I can go perminantly on leave but still be suseptable to scans, I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm just not fine with pure crafters being squeezed out of something they have been able to be a part of for over a year and a half now.. thats it. That is my point. It's more then obvious that most seem to disagree with that, including the devs, and yes it upsets me.
Message Edited by Fion13 on 02-11-2005 02:29 PM
Felisconcolori
Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:30 pm
#10
Fion13... Yes, I don't think we (the US) would go shoot every person that worked in an arms factory in Iraq. But then, you are also missing a major thematic element in the entire StarWars galaxy.
The Empire is not like the U.S. The Empire is a proven dictatorship, relying on military might and fear of retribution to enforce its laws and the viewpoints of the ruling elite class. Much closer to Saddam's regime, than anything else. Although comparitively by merits, Saddam would be a kitten against the Emperor, whom I think is closer to a raging tiger. So you see, while I don't think the Rebellion would target an Imperial arms factory directly while the shift is working (the Rebellion wants to win the hearts and minds of the workers, show them that the Alliance is just and right), the Imperial Army will wipe out entire planets of non-combatants with the wrong philosophical beliefs because they see it as excising a cancer that may spread. The Empire is, plain and simple, EVIL. Lucas made it that way, because the films depict something of a passion play, the underdog forces of good overwhelming the vastly superior firepower of evil because they are good. A pure heart vs the corrupt heart, with goodness showing to triumph over evil in the end.
Now, I myself am firmly of the belief that not every Imperial is evil; in fact, the entire Empire itself is more likely made up of good people that believe in the system, and are blind to the outrageous "sins" committed by the military and ruling elite classes. But the average citizen (Joe Hizlebikma, that random commoner wandering around the cantina) doesn't care that much, as it doesn't effect him in the least. But those that do care, are willing to take an active part, and are willing to take up arms when necessary. Just the same, they have to expect to be vulnerable to attacks from enemies that oppose them.
I'm a Rebel with no combat abilities. But because I have been outspoken in my support of the rebellion, lending aid to the cause by producing goods for military use and when necessary taking up my CDEF to draw fire from wounded combatants, I expect to be targetted by the Empire. I am actively supporting my faction, even though I am covert 99% of the time and only rush into PvP when I am the only option my comrades have. But my belief that the Empire is run by a horrible evil that must be stopped is strong enough that I am willing to die, time and again, to prevent them from winning.
Just as I feel that terrorism must be stopped, and I support the actions of US armed forces, and am willing to accept that so long as I support the US Constitution, I will always be targeted by those who oppose the values it represents. (Of course, I place no faith in any particular government, but the military and the Constitution... well, I swore this oath and I kindof take it seriously.)
Ahem. Now... flame on. Whether or not you agree with the characterization of the two sides, you must remember that Lucas has said, clearly, that the SW trilogy (and I imagine, the 6 combined) is a story about good vs evil, with good winning and even redeeming the evil.
Zadokk
Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:35 pm
#11
Fion13 wrote:
Yes, this change bothers the hell out of me, if that isn't apparent lmao.
"- The empire is controlling force of the galaxy.
- They say "Don't join the rebellion, they are terrorists and anyone who is or associated with a terrorist will either be arrested or shot on sight" (the latter applies because you cannot be arrested in this game)
- YOU ARE PART OF THE REBELLION
- YOU ARE HELPING TERRORISTS
- THEREFORE YOU WILL BE SHOT ON SIGHT."
1: Agree
2: I know
3: YEP
4: Eh hem.. freedom fighters
5: If they discover I am a rebel they already do this. Must be this patch is giving them some new automatic rebel detection device ah?
I suppose your right, it's not that people arent able to get what I'm saying, they just disagree. Although it's obvious the post agrees with me, as he is about to be put into the situation all non-combatant rebs have been in the last year. What I am trying to convey is that for over a year and a half it has been entirely possible to be a pure crafter and join a faction. Yes for rebels it was a bit of a pain but I was actually FOR the imp crackdown. But honestly, this game was designed to give people who didn't want to hunt constantly, a way to advance in a RP or non-combatant way. Anyone else here remember pre-release when the devs went out of their way to show that point? How bout the point raised by them several times within the last 6 months... that crafters would have a role to play in the CGW? Guess the devs just decided to throw that part of the game out the window ah?
As to on leave, from what I understand it is a temporary thing. If I can go perminantly on leave but still be suseptable to scans, I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm just not fine with pure crafters being squeezed out of something they have been able to be a part of for over a year and a half now.. thats it. That is my point. It's more then obvious that most seem to disagree with that, including the devs, and yes it upsets me.
Message Edited by Fion13 on 02-11-2005 02:29 PM
I'm glad I can stop playing devil's advocate now.
Personally, I think there should be some sort of immunity for crafters (for instance, they can work out mission payment by calculating your combat abilities) where the STs are less likely to expose you, depending on your ability to fight back. For instance a newb rebeljust starting out with his CDEF should be given some sort of 'grace' period that reduces their likelihood of being discovered. Obviously, I don't want to rain on the parade of smugglers who get this as one of their abilities - perhaps crafters could bribe STs
ArthurDentOnBria
Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:41 pm
#12
That is what I've been told. We'll of course have to see how it works out, but that was apparently the intent at least.
Personally though, I'm going to try staying in the "pvp disabled" state and seeing how it goes. I'm actually looking forward to a little danger. Also I'd imagine this will have some impact on my business, since I'm in Kaadara which is crawling with ST's. I see customers all the time coming in rebel overt, due to some *ahem* troubles at the starport en route. I have a feelingwhen this goes livesome of them will be coming via the clone center instead of via the starport, lol, but I can live with that knowledge. I'll just have to make sure the meds vendor is stocked 
Fion13 wrote:
As to on leave, from what I understand it is a temporary thing. If I can go perminantly on leave but still be suseptable to scans, I'm perfectly fine with that.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 02-11-2005 11:47 AM
Hylidex
Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:43 pm
#13
Just for the record, I'm your typical tulip BE. I'm just trying to be kind ot my Imperial colleagues by giving them a heads up.
Fion13 wrote:
Haha welcome to my world gImp!
What I am concerned about is opposing faction NPC's killing you on sight if your not 'on leave'. Leaving me to hope, especially being a rebel who hardly any combat skill) that going 'on leave' can be near perminant. I mean, who in there right mind thinks everyone who supports the rebelion is also on the front lines? Same for the empire. You think the guys who made the AT-ST's in the battle of hoth were also the ones driving them?
I'm thinking that while they WILL attack on sight, they will also appear red on the radar. If one is on leave, then they are yellow. Since they like to hang out among the city trash (especially near Theed), they are invisible on the radar, obscured by hundreds of gnorts, chubas, nunas, and spineflaps. Each trick has its merits, and only actually playing the game will show us which one is most effective.
This issue is a large one for crafters. I posted a request to consider the fact that it creates a dilemma for crafters and was bombarded by sarcasm on that thread.
I'm not trying to be a carebear. I just want a way to participate other than being killed three times a week.
Page 1 of 3