Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: Calculation for CL
Page 1 of 2
supersparc
Sun Mar 16, 2003 9:46 am
#1
Kelderek wrote:"I theorize that there is a bug that experimenting in physique will drive positive effective resists up AND drive negative effective resists down"--------------------------------The problem with this theory is that through multiple generations vulnerabilities start to disappear and you get your resistances back. The same pets I showed above will give me 30+ kinetic/energy/blast resistance if I try to push it to a 4th gen pet - happens every time. This shows that though the vulns are negative they are increasing through experimentation and eventually will be non-negative. If there was a bug like you say then no matter how many times I experiment and make new generations then it would always stay vulnerable, but that is not the result I get.
Yup, this is the same result I get. However, as you approach 500 fort then effective resists hit 40. I take this to mean that resists should always be able to go up 40 with rising fortitude. If they always went up 40 that would mean your resists to start would all need to be -120 or so....unless its fractional....but if its fractional they should never go from neg to pos....doesnt make alot of sense to me.....
Summary. If the neg resists go up fractionally, they should never get above zero. If they go up on an absolute scale, resists should always get there in Gen 3....and most probably in Gen 2. Could it be a hybrid? possibly.
rahbert
Mon Mar 28, 2005 2:31 pm
#2
Has anyone cracked the formula? I can't find it anywhere...
I'm trying to figure one out, but results are not very reliable.
I'm trying to figure one out, but results are not very reliable.
Kelderek
Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:39 pm
#3
I don't know the formula, and I suspect it is probably a "Holy Grail" type of quest to find it, but I do know a couple things about the CL calc.
1. Armor adds at least +8 to the level. Ifound this by taking a CL1 pet and pushing armor on it and it came out CL9. I have never seen armor add less than 8 to the CL, though I can't say for certain if it is possible to have it lower.
2. I believe that the CL of the creature you get a DNA sample from factors into the final CL when you do generational sampling. It is possible to have 2 creatures with similar stats have very different CLs. This is particularly true when you compare a BE clone with an animal from the wild. My CL12 clone may have the exact same HAM, resists, and specials as a CL25 animal in the wild. Take DNA from these two creatures and you will get a different final CL. This is just my theory, but it would explain a lot of weird things I've seen when crafting. It's hard to prove because of how hard it is to get the stats to match up that closely with a creature from the wild.
3. Balanced HAM > Total HAM > Individual HAM. I've madea CL1 pet with 9k health, this shows that having an individual HAM stat up highhas a negligible impact onthe CL calculation. A 11k/5k/2k clone will have a much lower CL than a 6k/6k/6k clone even though they both have the same cumulative sum of stats. Also the formula seems to care more about the max and min values and seems to mostly ignore the one in the middle. For example, I've seen very little change at all in the CL between a 10k/4k/2k clone and a 10k/8k/2k clone.
Most of that is just common knowledge, but it's the best info I can come up with about figuring out the CL calc.
ArthurDentOnBria
Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:59 pm
#4
Kelderek wrote:
3. Balanced HAM > Total HAM > Individual HAM. I've madea CL1 pet with 9k health, this shows that having an individual HAM stat up highhas a negligible impact onthe CL calculation. A 11k/5k/2k clone will have a much lower CL than a 6k/6k/6k clone even though they both have the same cumulative sum of stats. Also the formula seems to care more about the max and min values and seems to mostly ignore the one in the middle. For example, I've seen very little change at all in the CL between a 10k/4k/2k clone and a 10k/8k/2k clone.
I thinkwhat you are seeing here can be explained another way however. HAM seems to have a relatively minor impact on CL from any pool, but what does seem to have a big impact is cleverness, and experimenting on mental gives you the side-effect of raising cleverness. Every once in a while when you are experimenting you'll have a crit fail and you'll see the cleverness go down to rediculously low levels while keeping theintelligence value high, and when that happens, you'll usually get a "freak" pet that seemingly has much lower CL then it should from the other stats. This is why I am still so curious about what exactly "to-hit" does, because it seems to play a huge role in the CL calculation.
I thinksome rules of thumb are:
1) armor can add a lot to CL, particularly if there are a lot of non-vulnerable resistances
2) experimenting on aggression raises CL a lot
3) experimenting on mind raises CL a lot
4) experimenting on physique and prowess raise CL a little (with the exception of breaching the 500 fortitude barrier)
5) kinetic and energy resistances "cost" a lot in terms of CL
6) other resistances "cost" relatively little CL by comparison
Here is the best study on this that I've seen.This is also in the BE FAQ btw.
Message Edited by ArthurDentOnBria on 03-28-2005 03:05 PM
rahbert
Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:24 pm
#5
Ah thanks for the pointer to the FAQ. I've been doing experiments with CL calculation with Generation 1 pets, without ranged, or light armor rating. I'm assuming Ranged and AR1 will add a base value to the calculated CL. I am going to try and pinpoint this once I have the base CL calculation figured out.
I've ignored "to hit," speed, and damage into the calculation as I believe these are calculated from the DNA stats and don't directly contribute to the CL.
My results so far are really erratic... and from the looks of the FAQ it's because of the resistances. I assumed all resistances had an equal weighting. I'm going to add individual weighting to them and see what happens.
I've ignored "to hit," speed, and damage into the calculation as I believe these are calculated from the DNA stats and don't directly contribute to the CL.
My results so far are really erratic... and from the looks of the FAQ it's because of the resistances. I assumed all resistances had an equal weighting. I'm going to add individual weighting to them and see what happens.
Kelderek
Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:55 pm
#6
Well I'm not sure, I have a recipe that will give me a CL that is higher than I want unless I experiment physique and raise up the hardiness.
no exp in phys or mind = CL14
exp physique a few points and none in mind <= CL10
In both templates the mind stats (int + cle) stay the same as do all the resists, specials, damage, etc. This shows me that creating a gap between the min and max HAM stats will lower the CL.
I don't doubt that raising the cleverness will result in a higher CL, but what I'm referring to here is a change in experimentation that doesn't affect that stat at all.
no exp in phys or mind = CL14
exp physique a few points and none in mind <= CL10
In both templates the mind stats (int + cle) stay the same as do all the resists, specials, damage, etc. This shows me that creating a gap between the min and max HAM stats will lower the CL.
I don't doubt that raising the cleverness will result in a higher CL, but what I'm referring to here is a change in experimentation that doesn't affect that stat at all.
Zadokk
Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:19 pm
#9
I believe I have some links in my BE Research thread, including one very old one from the days of Talthazar.
Kelderek
Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:26 pm
#10
Ok, tonight I made two 2nd gen clones using DNA from the same 1st gen clone. The DNA was basically the same for these two pets. This is a MDH g1 g1 g1 MDH recipe for making damage pets. (I usually continue on to a 3rd gen for the final pet).
Pet 1: CL10 Gnort
experimentation: 7pts aggr, 2pts psych, 1pt phys; all great successes
Pet 2: CL13 Gnort
experimentation: 7pts aggr, 2pts psych; all great successes
Note that the stats are all higher/better on the first pet than on the second pet, yet the second pet has a higher CL. The second pet doesn't even have ranged attack, but it did get strong poison instead of blinding strike. I don't have screenshots of the templates before experimentation, but the stats were all very close.
So either the +3 CL difference is because of the strong poison instead of blinding strike, or it is because the second pet has more balanced HAM than the first one. The first pet was experimented in physique and that raised it's health and also the gap between the health and mind, and it came out at a lower CL than the other one. If it is the special that causes this change then you can write that up for future reference, but I've had very low level pets with strong poison before so I really don't think that could be it. I'd have to double check, but I think I've even made one of my CL1 pets with strong poison.
I have no other explanation than the one I proposed before: that a balanced HAM leads to a higher CL and an unbalanced HAM will lower the CL.
Pet 1: CL10 Gnort
experimentation: 7pts aggr, 2pts psych, 1pt phys; all great successes
Pet 2: CL13 Gnort
experimentation: 7pts aggr, 2pts psych; all great successes
Note that the stats are all higher/better on the first pet than on the second pet, yet the second pet has a higher CL. The second pet doesn't even have ranged attack, but it did get strong poison instead of blinding strike. I don't have screenshots of the templates before experimentation, but the stats were all very close.
So either the +3 CL difference is because of the strong poison instead of blinding strike, or it is because the second pet has more balanced HAM than the first one. The first pet was experimented in physique and that raised it's health and also the gap between the health and mind, and it came out at a lower CL than the other one. If it is the special that causes this change then you can write that up for future reference, but I've had very low level pets with strong poison before so I really don't think that could be it. I'd have to double check, but I think I've even made one of my CL1 pets with strong poison.
I have no other explanation than the one I proposed before: that a balanced HAM leads to a higher CL and an unbalanced HAM will lower the CL.
supersparc
Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:42 am
#11
Ok, here is a theory that I havent tested yet....
Its known that vulnerabilities are negative resists. Also, experimenting in physique can raise resist values....I theorize that there is a bug that experimenting in physique will drive positive effective resists up AND drive negative effective resists down....depending on your template this could have unusual effects....pets that have many vulns will have alot of CL reduction by experimenting physique, offsetting the CL increase of a higher HAM...
Just another random theory that I havent had a chance to disprove yet.
Its known that vulnerabilities are negative resists. Also, experimenting in physique can raise resist values....I theorize that there is a bug that experimenting in physique will drive positive effective resists up AND drive negative effective resists down....depending on your template this could have unusual effects....pets that have many vulns will have alot of CL reduction by experimenting physique, offsetting the CL increase of a higher HAM...
Just another random theory that I havent had a chance to disprove yet.
Message Edited by supersparc on 03-29-2005 09:43 AM
Zadokk
Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:16 am
#12
Kelderek wrote:
Ok, tonight I made two 2nd gen clones using DNA from the same 1st gen clone. The DNA was basically the same for these two pets. This is a MDH g1 g1 g1 MDH recipe for making damage pets. (I usually continue on to a 3rd gen for the final pet).
Pet 1: CL10 Gnort
experimentation: 7pts aggr, 2pts psych, 1pt phys; all great successes
Pet 2: CL13 Gnort
experimentation: 7pts aggr, 2pts psych; all great successes
Note that the stats are all higher/better on the first pet than on the second pet, yet the second pet has a higher CL. The second pet doesn't even have ranged attack, but it did get strong poison instead of blinding strike. I don't have screenshots of the templates before experimentation, but the stats were all very close.
So either the +3 CL difference is because of the strong poison instead of blinding strike, or it is because the second pet has more balanced HAM than the first one. The first pet was experimented in physique and that raised it's health and also the gap between the health and mind, and it came out at a lower CL than the other one. If it is the special that causes this change then you can write that up for future reference, but I've had very low level pets with strong poison before so I really don't think that could be it. I'd have to double check, but I think I've even made one of my CL1 pets with strong poison.
I have no other explanation than the one I proposed before: that a balanced HAM leads to a higher CL and an unbalanced HAM will lower the CL.
Wonder what would happen if instead of experimenting on physique, you experimented on just Prowess or just Mind? Would the results be the same?
Kelderek
Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:57 am
#13
I doubt that would be very useful with the template I am using. The DNA I use and the slots I put them into for the first gen cloneare already skewing my HAM stats towards physique. So by the time I work on this second gen clone I am already somewhat out of balance. Experimenting on physique at this point is only widening an already existing gap between physique and mind.
My guess is that 1pt in mind instead of physique might affect the CL some, but I don't think prowess would because it is the middle stat. I suppose it may be worth testing though just to see what happens.
This wasn't the best template to use for testing since I am using too many of my experimentation points on it, so there isn't much room to manuever it around in different test scenarios. For example, I tried the same template with 3 points spent on physique instead of 1, only 1 point in psych and the other 6 in aggression, but I got 2 failures (the one on psych andone of the aggr ones) so that voided out that test - the pet came out CL4 with nearly 9k health though and about 350 dmg. Most of that decrease in CL I attribute to the difference in aggression experimentation/failures.
I think for the ideal test you would have a "control" template with minimal experimentation, like maybe just psych to max, and an already slightly skewed HAM. Then run a few tests trying to push up the health through physique exp points and see how that affects the level. Likewise push up the mind instead of physiqueto make it more balanced and see how that turns out.
Page 1 of 2