Bio Engineer Archive
Thread: The Bio-engineering Trade Act of December 29th, 2003 (a suggestion)
OK. We all know that there is clearly a problem with the cloning system. One thing we can all agree on is that these pets are utterly uber once you start getting several generations in. Naturally some people think it's fair to continue to make them because we're allowed but personally I'm having a hard time justifying this to myself whenI know that I have it within my ability to attempt to create clones which are fair to their CL ratings by as much as possible. Naturally the resistances are well out of our control since the CL clone rating system ignored them completely and we don't really have a reliable means of measuring what is fair or not.
However before the patch I did pick up on some very accurate and simple maths where you could see a baseline corelation between the CL of the mob and the HAM itself. The full topic is here:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=bio-engineer&message.id=34914
To summerise what you basically have is a formula where you take the CL rating and multiply it by 200. Then you add an addtional bonus to the HAM according to the CL but ONLY if it doesn't have light armor. The bonuses panned out like this.
- CL20, add 1000 to the HAM
- CL25, add 1500 to the HAM
- CL30, add 2000 to the HAM
..and so on. This lead to only half of the equasion which was usually paired with what i caleld a resistances quota. However that was mearly something to help further refine the accuracy of the estimate.
What I'm proposing is that any bio-engineer here who feels they have a duty to minimize the hassle to their customers when this is fixed and feel they don't like the idea of selling overpowered clone is that we should attempt to abide by some kind of guideline to the HAMs. This will benefit the customers because they will find that if all pets in the game do have their stats checked and rebalanced then we don't find our customers coming back and complaining their CL10 pet with 10k of HAM has suddently increase to CL47 or something. After all by helpping them avoid this bug we're helpping ourselves and our trade reputations further down the road when this is corrected.
Now this isn't going to be for everyone here, there will be a significant amount of customers in the game who want these overpowered clones. We're going to lose bussiness for the sake of our own conscience and trade reputations. But me personally, i think thats worth it. My customers trust me, they trust what i make and I shouldn't willingly sell them something that I **edit** well know has a good chance of being deleted or otherwise altered after the patch. Especially when its within my power to avoid or minimise this flaw in our system.
So there you have it, the Bio-Engineering Trade Act of Dec 29th. Mearly an idea, a suggestions for bio-engineers who wish to keep their good reputations over making as much money as possible. I sincerely hopethe majorityof you consider and follow this suggestion.
For those of you who are curious about how this math works out for certain popular CL ratings it looks something like this:
- CL10 -- 500+(10x200) = 2500maximum HAM
- CL20 -- 1000+(20x200) = 5000 maximum HAM
- CL30 -- 2000+(30x200) = 8000 maximum HAM
- CL40 -- 3000+(40x200) = 11000 maximum HAM
- CL50 -- 4000+(50x200) = 14000 maximum HAM
..remember that most wild animals from CL40+ have armor in many cases. They lose that bonus. Here's the typical HAM for what youshould expect from lightly armored clones and wild animals.
- CL10 -- 10x200 = 2000 max
- CL20 -- 20x200 = 4000 max
- CL30 -- 30x200 = 6000 max
- CL40 -- 40x200 = 8000 max
- CL50 -- 50x200 = 10000 max
- CL60 -- 60x200 = 12000 max
- CL70 -- 70x200 = 14000 max
As you can see this is fairly consistant with what you see from mobs in the game at the moment which is why I find it's a good ball park figure baseline to work from to determine what is 'fair'.
Tal,
I like this idea and am willing to abide by it, although I think one of the interesting abilities that we have right now is the ability to make tradeoffs (health vs action, resists versus HAM, armor versus damage, and so forth) so sticking strictly to a HAM formula is not really possible, but I will certainly abide by the intent of this act in spirit.
I apparently missed that first thread of yours which you reference here. I am working on a CL calculator myself that is based off of the dna template stats so it is interesting to see your calculations.
One question though: what made you believe that certain resistences are weighted two or three times what others are weighted? If true, I never would have guessed this intuitively.
Well this can very easily be abided by since the spirit of the initive is to create a fair means of determining what is unbalanced. I mean the math simply determines this for mobs in the game and they typically have even health, action and mind for all pools.
CL25 should have 6500 in all pools. Thats a total of 19500 points of health. You could quite easily tier that from health to mind to create 9000/9000/1500 and thats still fair. So if you want to break this down into something thats a bit easier to work with.
- CL10 -- 2500 x 3 = 7500 total HAM points
- CL20 -- 5000 x 3 = 15000 total HAM points
- CL30 -- 8000 x 3 = 24000 total HAM points
- CL40 -- 11000 x 3 = 33000 total HAM points
- CL50 -- 14000 x 3 = 42000 total HAM points
..and for armored.
- CL10 -- 2000 x 3 = 6000 total
- CL20 -- 4000 x 3 = 12000 total
- CL30 -- 6000 x 3 = 18000 total
- CL40 -- 8000 x 3 = 24000 total
- CL50 -- 10000 x 3 = 30000 total
- CL60 -- 12000 x 3 = 36000 total
- CL70 -- 14000 x 3 = 42000 total
I'm on Arthur's side of this.... I agree with the idea, but don't agree that HAM should be the be all, end allof determining CL. Too many variables you can mix match trade to adjust.
I do like the spirit of this though.
Don't sell stuff that is obviously WAY too good (mostly the non-CH monstrosities we see, though it flows upward too... its just harder to see). I can point to a CL8 8k 40resist 300dmg pet and say BAD. I can't point to a CL35 10k 40resist Lightarmor400dmg pet and say BAD... its just not as clear cut.
I'd be in better shape if my research were complete on this cloning system and I had a CL formula for stuff I've made strictly with 1st generation DNA without dumbing down the Mental / Psych slots. Til then I do have that holy grail equation, I'm just gonna hope we all keep our wits and make the personal judgement calls to police ourself thru self-restraint.
As i said this was only half the equasion, if you want to look into it more than feel free to check the topic where it wraps up the HAM calculations with the resistance ones quite nicely. This is little more than a baseline, something to work from. Having a CL10 pet with 2500 for everything is pretty decent I can agree, there's not many critters in the wild that have HAM that high but the fact is that if you make a direct copy of a carrion spat and expeiment the HAM up for the first generation then you do end up with a HAM around 2000 oddly enough. On the original topic things did indeed fall apart when you got under CL10 and over CL100, it's not flawless but it's the best we've got to work with at the moment.
One question though: what made you believe that certain resistences are weighted two or three times what others are weighted? If true, I never would have guessed this intuitively.
Two reasons really, I've dabbled a bit in game design and my experience has said that protection to more common damage types is more valuable than protection to lesser damage types. Secondly the devs did mention that kinetic and energy damage types were alot more common than others in the game so they needed to make such resistances increase the CL more than others since it does essentially make the mob harder to hurt which is what the CL ratings are all about... toughness.
I basically worked out them as being around x3 more valuable since typically 3/4 of the mobs and professions cause energy or melee damage. It was just a rough guess but we know for starters that mainly all mobs cause kinetic aside from the NPCs who vary a bit. But if you also looked at all weapons in the gamne you'd see a good 3/4 to2/3of them causing energy or kineticdamage.
Oh my god, I love this but in truth how many people will abide by it until someone makes it a realty. We all know that some people are going to mass make and sell uber-pets, then if a patch oranything comes out after either sony or the profession as a whole will get the bad name.
I personally have made a few non-ch pets for friends I play with but all have been below 3k ham, We all work together and I just explained it that it was very unlikely that the uber-pets would be around much longer. I cant see a non-ch tanking better than my Rancors! or my new Light Armour 10.8k ham kinetic 41 blurrg with strong poison, knockdown , 430-440 dam hehe
Gronda's are 20 or 21 with no armor,20-30 resist and 5500 HAM now. I have one and will post exact figures tonight when I log in.
Lod-Reh SaJon ~ StarSider
Oh my god, I love this but in truth how many people will abide by it until someone makes it a realty. We all know that some people are going to mass make and sell uber-pets, then if a patch oranything comes out after either sony or the profession as a whole will get the bad name.
Not that many, the majority of people will always take the easy way if it's given to them. However some of us do actually dislike knowing that we're 'cheating' so it'd be nice to have a way to get around it. All this initive does is help establish a guideline to work from. In the end it's the people who follow this who will benefit later on because when this is fixed people who owned the overpowered pets will see something happen to them. They'll remember who they got it from and remember that they weren't told this would happen or were told that it wouldn't effect them.
In the end it's the honest bio-engineers who will benefit from this in the long run.