Artisan Archive
Thread: harvesters (and factories) and surveying
Page 1 of 1
Ffej_Cra
Sun May 23, 2004 8:39 am
#1
Wow, I hadn't looked at the artisan forum in a while. I didn't realize the big harvester debate was going on.
To me, I don't see why it's a big debate. With the way the rest of the game is set up, having two of the most powerful economic tools out there, harvesters and factories, require no certification, is ludicrous.
It's not as big of a deal with factories, since making a schematic is the most important part. But it would still probably make sense to make each factory type require a certification somewhere.
With harvesters, it's nuts. Everyone and their mother throws out some harvesters, many or even most don't even have surveying skill (they either get locations from others or just take whatever is available in a certain spot I guess). It doesn't make any sense, but a bunch of people think it's an entitlement because they've been taking advantage of it for so long.
Saying that the cost of resources would go up if it changed isn't much of an argument. Maybe the price should go up. If it goes up enough, supply and demand will see to it that more people will pick up the skills they need to get resources. Every time something in the game is changed, some things might get more difficult of become more expensive ... it doesn't mean that it isn't a good change in the long run.
There are any number of ways certification could be added, and most of them would make more sense than what we have now.
Also, related to this, surveying and/or the way resources spawn ought to be revamped. Right now, it's too easy for someone to get a decent amount of resources to mine with little or no effort. At the same time, someone with surveying 4 can put in a lot of time and effort and may not find anything much better. That ratio ought to change. One way to do it would be to make the areas where resources are available smaller, but the concentrations higher and the gradient (how much the concentration changes over distance) much higher. That would make it harder on people who just want to plop down a harv, or leave it sitting in the same spot, and reward those actually making an effort. If the areas of high concentration were muchsmaller, it would also make it harder for those groups where one person surveys and sendwaypoints to12 people who throw down harvesters in the same area. (I'm not blaming them for doing that - they are playing within the rules - but I don't think it makes sense or is particularly fair that the rules work the way they do.) Having that sort of thing going on doesn't really make sense and it's a side effect of the lot limitations. Another side effect of the lot limitations (also not unrelated) is that I think some people run characters on other servers just to use their lots for putting down harvesters. That's how screwed up the resource mining system is ... it's the one thing that's so easy to do that you can make a lot of money while doing it as an absentee with no effort.
I'd also be in favor of making it a little easier to find a spot where you can put down a harvester. Once again, that would help the people doing it actively.
HalasterTheBlack
Sun May 23, 2004 8:48 am
#2
Could you please clearly define the *problem* that certs is supposed to solve?
Ffej_Cra
Sun May 23, 2004 8:58 am
#3
The problem is that the way it works now doesn't make economic sense, and isn't logical in relation to the way most of the rest of the game works.
If you think "resources are cheaper and easier now, if something changes they will be more expensive, so it will cause a problem rather than solving one", it would make just as much sense for me to say "if you would let me (a crafter/merchant with no combat skills) use a flamethrower with no penalty, that would solve a problem for me - what problem is solved by not letting me use one?"
By the way, from my viewpoint, this isn't about giving something to artisans, it's about fixing something that doesn't make sense. There are a lot of ways it could be fixed. Artisan certs ... merchant certs ... a whole new profession. Instead of having certs, you could just vastly increase the maintenance cost on harvesters, then give artisans and/or merchants and/or a new profession enough discounts that it's a lot more practical for them to run harvesters than someone uncertified. And the changes to the way resources spawn that I mentioned might help a lot just to help make sure that the people who are putting in the effort are reaping more of the rewards, regardless of certs.
HalasterTheBlack
Sun May 23, 2004 9:20 am
#4
Putting a crate of 50 couches into my pack doesn't make sense either.
Nor does storing a Rancor into a computer to be called out later.
Yet I don't see anyone whining about THOSE things.
So, let me clarify my question...
Please explain exactly how the game is being damaged under the current system.
Your point re flamethrowers has been addressed and shot down elsewhere. Specifically by the argument that there WAS a mining professoin that was dropped due to time & resource constraints. When that happened, the devs gave us all equal ability to use miners. What do you want next, artisan cert to drive a swoop bike?
Thanks.
Ffej_Cra
Sun May 23, 2004 9:46 am
#5
"
Putting a crate of 50 couches into my pack doesn't make sense either.
Nor does storing a Rancor into a computer to be called out later."
True enough. That makes the point that, although we (most of us anyway I think) want things to be logical, sometimes it's more important to keep playability or bow to technical limitations. I give you that.
"Please explain exactly how the game is being damaged under the current system."
I enjoy the economic side of the game. Although it isn't perfect, the more sense the whole economic system makes, the more I enjoy the game. The way things work now, it's too easy for anyone, without any skill point investment or much effort, to harvest large amounts of resources. This isn't something that is just done by master crafters to support themselves. It's something that is done by combat characters and absentee players who mainly play on other servers.
I've been playing this game for quite a while now. It used to be that more of the resource gathering was done by people who specialized in it, which made a certain amount of sense. As more and more people have figured out that it's economically viable to harvest resources with little or no effort, the market has gotten strange and doesn't make a lot of sense any longer. Instead of having some large dealers who deal in large amounts of resources, there are hundreds of tiny ones selling whatever popped up in their backyard the last couple of weeks. That doesn't make much sense to me.
Part of the weirdness of this relates to the real estate system in the game, and people getting the economic advantage that they can out of their lots. If you are going to have the real estate system that we have, that makes a certain amount of sense. But I think it is also warped in a bad way by the ability to create characters on many other servers other than your primary one, and people trying to take advantage of that.
"Your point re flamethrowers has been addressed and shot down elsewhere. Specifically by the argument that there WAS a mining professoin that was dropped due to time & resource constraints. When that happened, the devs gave us all equal ability to use miners."
I disagree that that "shot down" the logic. The fact that there was intended to be a profession for mining doesn't impact the logic of what I said at all. Actually that just points out that the only reason we have a system that doesn't really make sense is that they devs ran out of time to complete the original vision for how it should work. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be fixed later as contstraints allow.
"What do you want next, artisan cert to drive a swoop bike?"
Did I not say that I'm not making this argument because of a need to help artisans? I don't have a strong preference right now about which of several different options are used to fix this, I just think it would make sense to fix it.
HalasterTheBlack
Sun May 23, 2004 10:13 am
#6
Ah, finally! An intelligent debate on this subject! Thank you!
Ok, on to my rebuttal...
I agree that the economics of SW:Gare "strange"... I'd use a lot of other colorful words too,maybe. BUT take a look at what has happened. Today, there are a bazillion people who haven't a clue about what a good resource is, mining them. And we have a lot of people buying up those crappy resources. Yep, I agree.
But let's look at the "why" of that... and that's the holo-grind. We all know the holo-grind is going to end in probably 6-8 weeks, right?
What do you suppose is going to happen to all those bulk resource dealers once the holo-grind ends?
I believe that the vast majority of them are going to pack up their harvesters and call it "done" once they figure out that they can't figure out how to make money any more.
I believe that a small minority of them will figure out how to mine for themselves.
When all that comes around, the resource trade will return to something similar to what it was back before we figured out all we had to do was mindlessly grind to hit Jedi. Not exactly like it, no. But I think that's ok too.
But let's talk worst case. Say we leave it so everyone can wrangle harvs and most of those doing it now figure out how to make money at it. Then what?
Well, THEN you have a ton of high-quality resources entering the economy. Far greater supply than demand. In which case, those selling the materials will have to cut their prices drastically in order to sell. When that happens, some will figure out that it's no longer profitable enough (read: the effort isn't worth the reward) and drop out. Which will, again, result in an economy that resembles pre-grind days.
I think what I'm trying to say is that the economy is a "natural" one. Things will work themselves out all of their own accord, because the law of supply and demand actually works fairly well in SW:G.
Now if we go the other route and cert harvesters to Artisans, some very bad things will happen once the holo-grind ends. Firstly, Artisans generally don't have a lot of lots free for harvesters. They have houses and factories on their lots. If you restrict the big rigs to just Artisans, you're not just taking away 8 lots per non-artisan, you're taking away over 95% of the harvesting power in the game today. Which, of course, reduces the supply of resources to 5% of what it is today.
Now think back to the pre-grind days... do you think we were drawing more or less than 5% of what we are now? I was there. I mined it. We drew at least 35-40% of what we are today. Maybe more.
Think, then, about how that reduced supply of raw materials will impact the market. Miners will sell *high*. Very high. Which will, in turn, drive the price of every material and service that uses mined goods.
I mentioned that the economy is "Natural" and can take care of itself... but in this case, I don't see that it would. You see, if you cert harvesters then people HAVE to be artisan to mine. But a lot of people who rent lots to legit mining businesses don't want to be artisans. They play the game to be Bounty Hunters or Entertainers or Jedi or whatever. If you force them to take up Artisan to mine, they'll not do it.
It won't work because the economy is only so "natural". There is no requirement to participate in it; one can always cancel the game if it becomes too much like "work".
So on the anti-cert hand, you have a condition that may not be optimal, but that will correct itself naturally.
On the pro-cert hand, you create a condition that is definitely not optimal (hyperinflation caused by incredible limits on raw materials) and that will not be able to correct itself naturally.
I would prefer we artisans take the track of waiting to see what happens. If 2-3 months after holo-grinding ends we're seeing prices of .5cr per unit for uber resources, I'll agree there's a problem. But if that price is closer to 1-1.5, I think that is a very good place to be.
MarcoRenaldi
Sun May 23, 2004 11:25 am
#7
Very nice post Hal.
I fail to see why people think a exorbent amount of resources is a bad thing. I ind great resources for 2 cpu not 5 or 6, but stuff i can use to make the very best harvesters possible. Lots of resources mean low cost which translates to lower overhead for crafters and allow the non-guild crafter a chance to compete with prices.
I also agree with your point on legitimate mining companies(the first mention of these people). I opeate GodaPower which at one time was running over 100 fusion generators legitimately. I payed my employees .5 cpu for every radioactive they miend since Iowned the harvesters. How is this wrong? I started with only 4 solar gens and got to where i was through good business sense and competitive prices. Why should a empire that entailed that much work to create be brought down because several artisians(of which I am one) want to make more money than some elite proffessions?
Message Edited by MarcoRenaldi on 05-23-2004 11:26 AM
hoenix
Ffej_Cra
Sun May 23, 2004 11:40 am
#8
"But let's look at the "why" of that... and that's the holo-grind. We all know the holo-grind is going to end in probably 6-8 weeks, right?"
Actually, I kind of thought that had largely died out on Bria already ... but there could still be some going on, I guess. If so, that will, as you suggest, just cause a further depression in the market for resources.
"What do you suppose is going to happen to all those bulk resource dealers once the holo-grind ends?
I believe that the vast majority of them are going to pack up their harvesters and call it "done" once they figure out that they can't figure out how to make money any more.
I believe that a small minority of them will figure out how to mine for themselves."
I'm not as sure about that. It goes back to my point about surveying and how the resources spawn (a lot of moderate concentrations that are easy to find.) If my suggested changesabout how resources spawn were going into effect, at least I'd feel like the people who were going to put effort in would be the ones who would benefit. As it is, it takes an awful lot of work sometimes for a serious surveyor to get a lot better results.
Part of what I don't like about this is ... the crafting system in this game, although it has room for improvement, is pretty interesting and can make playing a non-combat character interesting. The (at least largely) player driven economy also contributes to that. Because of those things, playing the role of someone who seeks out, mines and sells good resources can be an interesting and important part of the economy. However, the current system is wiping out that unofficial profession. (Many or even most of the old time big resource producers on my server have gone out of business. I personally was never one of the biggest, but it used to be the thing I spent most of my time on, and now it's an afterthought. On the bright side I became motivated to finally finish the grind to master weaponsmith.) So, I guess a big part of my thing is, certs aside, I'd prefer to see changes that once again make the resource production more practical for the people who get some enjoyment out of putting real effort into it, instead of being what it is now.
If we aren't going to have a profession, or at least an unofficial one, for people who are actually interested in resource production and willing to put some effort into it (skill points/certs or not), it would seem to make as much or more sense to just remove resource production from the player economy and have NPC resource vendors. If you think that the game should allow for that type of a role, you have to admit that they are not getting a fair shake with the way things work now. (Kind of like merchants when people who aren't merchants can still have the vendors.)
"I mentioned that the economy is "Natural" and can take care of itself... but in this case, I don't see that it would. You see, if you cert harvesters then people HAVE to be artisan to mine. But a lot of people who rent lots to legit mining businesses don't want to be artisans. They play the game to be Bounty Hunters or Entertainers or Jedi or whatever. If you force them to take up Artisan to mine, they'll not do it."
Hmm, aren't you using the "invisible hand" only when it's convenient for your own argument? 
Well, as I said, I could see the solution being something other than the certs, although I still like the cert idea better than what we have now. The more I think about it though, the more I like my idea about changing the resource spawns/concentrations. I also agree that more advanced survey skills being available would be good (I saw that somewhere in the many posts I browsed this morning on this subject.)
Also,wrt renting lots ... if you could really rent the lots (i.e. just transfer, for a certain time period, your rights to an additional lot, rather than unofficial way it works now) that would avoid some of your concerns. It would also keep the entitlement intact (that every character on the server is entitled to a permanent claim on 10 lots.)
MarcoRenaldi
Sun May 23, 2004 11:51 am
#9
Ffej_Cra wrote:
Also,wrt renting lots ... if you could really rent the lots (i.e. just transfer, for a certain time period, your rights to an additional lot, rather than unofficial way it works now) that would avoid some of your concerns. It would also keep the entitlement intact (that every character on the server is entitled to a permanent claim on 10 lots.)
IMO that is probably the best way to do it, but would be asily exploited IMO as cross server trades would be even more rampant than they already are.
A point that is continually made is that Elite Crafters are far from self sufficient as far as resources go. Archs have 4 lot at minimum used up by a house and factory. That leaves 6 lots(I think WS and AS can get by using 3 lots due to factories being smaller) to mine with which might allow me to build a fusion gen a week. IF you take out 90% of the resources coming into the market you will chasing 90% of the crafters out of their business due to soaring costs and little porfit to be made since few would be able to buy armor or guns.
Stargzrrag
Sun May 23, 2004 3:26 pm
#10
/cheer
Keep up the debate you two.
Best thread on topic so far.
Page 1 of 1