Artisan Archive
Thread: An Examination: Wordy but insightful
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KnnOs
Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:04 am
#1
I'm sorry for the length of this essay, but it contains things I think it is important for everyone to read, after all, all of my opinions not only MUST be true, but are also gold, flowing forth from my fingers and into the digital realm for your consumption. Without further ado....
Galaxies, and the problems that continue to plague it, are of great concern to me. I, like most Star Wars fans, had several biological reactions when I first heard of Galaxies, some of them simply not appropriate for polite company (The Queen was NOT pleased). The magic, now, is simply gone. Galaxies was not what we had expected or hoped, and as a very wise man once told me, “The worst things in life are expectations unmet.1” Why, then? What is it that causes the problems? Why is the game so disappointed, frustrating and plainly aggravating?
One reason is purely experience. It takes a good long while for most of us to get anywhere. Take a look at all the crafting professions. I don’t understand how a non-grinder can get through them. I truly wanted not to grind, to work my way up weaponsmithing and tailoring by making things and trying to make a living. With tailoring it’s slightly more possible, but not really. In weaponsmithing the earliest things you can make are d18 pistols. They flood the markets and fall over onto the streets where they have to be swept into gutters to keep from blocking the streets up. I think the average person has no trouble getting through level one of pistols in marksman in one night of very light playing. At most, that means maybe 100 weapons crafting experience. In order to ascend that particular tree by grinding, one must make 7,792 blaster rifle barrels (Each is worth 115 xp, do the math). I don’t necessarily believe that the crafting experience climbing should be any quicker, but it is plagued with horrible, horrible tedium. A game should be fun, tedium is the antithesis of fun. Sadly, I’m at a loss for solutions. A far greater variety of schematics might work, and instead of grinding, in order to advance to the next skill level you had to build (not practice, build) one or two of each schematic of the previous level. For example, a tailor would have to build every shirt and robe from level 1 in order to advance to level 2, though not things like metal fasteners or other components. The problem with that, and the reason that the experience system is such an uphill swim is that many, or most people, would rather grind and climb as rapidly as possible rather than enjoy the way up. The game had to be designed not for an ideal system, but for the reality it would face.
A sense of being suckered hangs over the Galaxies-player community. We feel as though we devote not only 15 dollars but a great deal of time and effort into our dream game and we get a couple little puff balls of fun in the midst of overwhelming tedium. Many of us harbor feelings of being taken advantage of by the Devs. We see an attitude of “They’re Star Wars fans, they’ll play ANYTHING. Let’s see if we can get them to run in the scamper wheel!” Furthermore, a wide variety of us are role-players, and are constantly colliding into consistently rude, self-absorbed, leet-slang speaking fools who only want what we can give them, rather than acknowledging that we are human beings who deserve respect.
The Devs have it hard. They deal with so many requests, generated by problems in the game or by the simple stupidity and greed that plagues a certain sector of the Galaxies-playing community. They spent three years on a game just to have it tossed around on other companies’ message boards like it was the worst thing to ever be transmitted over the internet (Trust me, it’s not. *shudder*). The frustration must be crushing.
Finally, we have the message boards themselves. I admit, I only use them when I need something. I don’t like to talk on them; I’d rather talk in the game, though some aforementioned fools make that difficult. Even with my limited experience, there seems to be only griping and bad blood between Devs and players. We all are here because we want, we REALLY want Galaxies to succeed, to stand among all the other MMORPGS as a beacon of what the genre can be, and also to have a lot of fun doing it. So friends, bury the hatchet. The Devs are people who are as committed to this game as you are. Sure, they get paid to be, but they have to go into the office and deal with idiots the vast majority of the day. Devs, we aren’t really all idiots, and we do appreciate your efforts. The frustration sparked off by this game should not be enough to make us blind to the common goal that we all share.
Galaxies, and the problems that continue to plague it, are of great concern to me. I, like most Star Wars fans, had several biological reactions when I first heard of Galaxies, some of them simply not appropriate for polite company (The Queen was NOT pleased). The magic, now, is simply gone. Galaxies was not what we had expected or hoped, and as a very wise man once told me, “The worst things in life are expectations unmet.1” Why, then? What is it that causes the problems? Why is the game so disappointed, frustrating and plainly aggravating?
One reason is purely experience. It takes a good long while for most of us to get anywhere. Take a look at all the crafting professions. I don’t understand how a non-grinder can get through them. I truly wanted not to grind, to work my way up weaponsmithing and tailoring by making things and trying to make a living. With tailoring it’s slightly more possible, but not really. In weaponsmithing the earliest things you can make are d18 pistols. They flood the markets and fall over onto the streets where they have to be swept into gutters to keep from blocking the streets up. I think the average person has no trouble getting through level one of pistols in marksman in one night of very light playing. At most, that means maybe 100 weapons crafting experience. In order to ascend that particular tree by grinding, one must make 7,792 blaster rifle barrels (Each is worth 115 xp, do the math). I don’t necessarily believe that the crafting experience climbing should be any quicker, but it is plagued with horrible, horrible tedium. A game should be fun, tedium is the antithesis of fun. Sadly, I’m at a loss for solutions. A far greater variety of schematics might work, and instead of grinding, in order to advance to the next skill level you had to build (not practice, build) one or two of each schematic of the previous level. For example, a tailor would have to build every shirt and robe from level 1 in order to advance to level 2, though not things like metal fasteners or other components. The problem with that, and the reason that the experience system is such an uphill swim is that many, or most people, would rather grind and climb as rapidly as possible rather than enjoy the way up. The game had to be designed not for an ideal system, but for the reality it would face.
A sense of being suckered hangs over the Galaxies-player community. We feel as though we devote not only 15 dollars but a great deal of time and effort into our dream game and we get a couple little puff balls of fun in the midst of overwhelming tedium. Many of us harbor feelings of being taken advantage of by the Devs. We see an attitude of “They’re Star Wars fans, they’ll play ANYTHING. Let’s see if we can get them to run in the scamper wheel!” Furthermore, a wide variety of us are role-players, and are constantly colliding into consistently rude, self-absorbed, leet-slang speaking fools who only want what we can give them, rather than acknowledging that we are human beings who deserve respect.
The Devs have it hard. They deal with so many requests, generated by problems in the game or by the simple stupidity and greed that plagues a certain sector of the Galaxies-playing community. They spent three years on a game just to have it tossed around on other companies’ message boards like it was the worst thing to ever be transmitted over the internet (Trust me, it’s not. *shudder*). The frustration must be crushing.
Finally, we have the message boards themselves. I admit, I only use them when I need something. I don’t like to talk on them; I’d rather talk in the game, though some aforementioned fools make that difficult. Even with my limited experience, there seems to be only griping and bad blood between Devs and players. We all are here because we want, we REALLY want Galaxies to succeed, to stand among all the other MMORPGS as a beacon of what the genre can be, and also to have a lot of fun doing it. So friends, bury the hatchet. The Devs are people who are as committed to this game as you are. Sure, they get paid to be, but they have to go into the office and deal with idiots the vast majority of the day. Devs, we aren’t really all idiots, and we do appreciate your efforts. The frustration sparked off by this game should not be enough to make us blind to the common goal that we all share.
KnnOs
Sat Feb 21, 2004 11:11 am
#2
an update to my above idea for crafting:
Every class has a certain number of things that must be crafted, for example, in order to advance a skill level in Tailor, you must craft from 20-25 things (randomizing with each skill, with each player) it might be 5 robes, 10 shirts, 4 pants, and one belt, or some other combination, it randomizes with every skill so the player can't know what exactly to build, which would force everyone to just craft what they want, make a little shop, and keep building and selling. For an architect, you might have to build only 4-8 things, since they require far more resources, and weaponsmith might fall in the middle with 15-20 things. I think, personally, that is a fairly exploit-proof method of making crafting more exciting and enjoyable.
Every class has a certain number of things that must be crafted, for example, in order to advance a skill level in Tailor, you must craft from 20-25 things (randomizing with each skill, with each player) it might be 5 robes, 10 shirts, 4 pants, and one belt, or some other combination, it randomizes with every skill so the player can't know what exactly to build, which would force everyone to just craft what they want, make a little shop, and keep building and selling. For an architect, you might have to build only 4-8 things, since they require far more resources, and weaponsmith might fall in the middle with 15-20 things. I think, personally, that is a fairly exploit-proof method of making crafting more exciting and enjoyable.
KnnOs
Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:51 pm
#3
ok, seriously, this is the last addendum
an object only counts toward the count if it meets certain quality requirements
an object only counts toward the count if it meets certain quality requirements
Asteroids
Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:08 pm
#4
Having a bad day? I hear you, I think when I hear people griping about the game, its a matter of do the pros outweight the cons? Yes its nice to have a rant sometimes, it makes us feel better. My suggestion would be to take a break and re-evaluate when you get back.
Galaxyburst
Sat Feb 21, 2004 4:07 pm
#5
[quote] I'm sorry for the length of this essay, but it contains things I think it is important for everyone to read, after all, all of my opinions not only MUST be true, but are also gold, flowing forth from my fingers and into the digital realm for your consumption. Without further ado....
Galaxies, and the problems that continue to plague it, are of great concern to me. I, like most Star Wars fans, had several biological reactions when I first heard of Galaxies, some of them simply not appropriate for polite company (The Queen was NOT pleased). The magic, now, is simply gone. Galaxies was not what we had expected or hoped, and as a very wise man once told me, “The worst things in life are expectations unmet.1” Why, then? What is it that causes the problems? Why is the game so disappointed, frustrating and plainly aggravating?
One reason is purely experience. It takes a good long while for most of us to get anywhere. Take a look at all the crafting professions. I don’t understand how a non-grinder can get through them. I truly wanted not to grind, to work my way up weaponsmithing and tailoring by making things and trying to make a living. With tailoring it’s slightly more possible, but not really. In weaponsmithing the earliest things you can make are d18 pistols. They flood the markets and fall over onto the streets where they have to be swept into gutters to keep from blocking the streets up. I think the average person has no trouble getting through level one of pistols in marksman in one night of very light playing. At most, that means maybe 100 weapons crafting experience. In order to ascend that particular tree by grinding, one must make 7,792 blaster rifle barrels (Each is worth 115 xp, do the math). I don’t necessarily believe that the crafting experience climbing should be any quicker, but it is plagued with horrible, horrible tedium. A game should be fun, tedium is the antithesis of fun. Sadly, I’m at a loss for solutions. A far greater variety of schematics might work, and instead of grinding, in order to advance to the next skill level you had to build (not practice, build) one or two of each schematic of the previous level. For example, a tailor would have to build every shirt and robe from level 1 in order to advance to level 2, though not things like metal fasteners or other components. The problem with that, and the reason that the experience system is such an uphill swim is that many, or most people, would rather grind and climb as rapidly as possible rather than enjoy the way up. The game had to be designed not for an ideal system, but for the reality it would face.
A sense of being suckered hangs over the Galaxies-player community. We feel as though we devote not only 15 dollars but a great deal of time and effort into our dream game and we get a couple little puff balls of fun in the midst of overwhelming tedium. Many of us harbor feelings of being taken advantage of by the Devs. We see an attitude of “They’re Star Wars fans, they’ll play ANYTHING. Let’s see if we can get them to run in the scamper wheel!” Furthermore, a wide variety of us are role-players, and are constantly colliding into consistently rude, self-absorbed, leet-slang speaking fools who only want what we can give them, rather than acknowledging that we are human beings who deserve respect.
The Devs have it hard. They deal with so many requests, generated by problems in the game or by the simple stupidity and greed that plagues a certain sector of the Galaxies-playing community. They spent three years on a game just to have it tossed around on other companies’ message boards like it was the worst thing to ever be transmitted over the internet (Trust me, it’s not. *shudder*). The frustration must be crushing.
Finally, we have the message boards themselves. I admit, I only use them when I need something. I don’t like to talk on them; I’d rather talk in the game, though some aforementioned fools make that difficult. Even with my limited experience, there seems to be only griping and bad blood between Devs and players. We all are here because we want, we REALLY want Galaxies to succeed, to stand among all the other MMORPGS as a beacon of what the genre can be, and also to have a lot of fun doing it. So friends, bury the hatchet. The Devs are people who are as committed to this game as you are. Sure, they get paid to be, but they have to go into the office and deal with idiots the vast majority of the day. Devs, we aren’t really all idiots, and we do appreciate your efforts. The frustration sparked off by this game should not be enough to make us blind to the common goal that we all share. [/quote]
Galaxies, and the problems that continue to plague it, are of great concern to me. I, like most Star Wars fans, had several biological reactions when I first heard of Galaxies, some of them simply not appropriate for polite company (The Queen was NOT pleased). The magic, now, is simply gone. Galaxies was not what we had expected or hoped, and as a very wise man once told me, “The worst things in life are expectations unmet.1” Why, then? What is it that causes the problems? Why is the game so disappointed, frustrating and plainly aggravating?
One reason is purely experience. It takes a good long while for most of us to get anywhere. Take a look at all the crafting professions. I don’t understand how a non-grinder can get through them. I truly wanted not to grind, to work my way up weaponsmithing and tailoring by making things and trying to make a living. With tailoring it’s slightly more possible, but not really. In weaponsmithing the earliest things you can make are d18 pistols. They flood the markets and fall over onto the streets where they have to be swept into gutters to keep from blocking the streets up. I think the average person has no trouble getting through level one of pistols in marksman in one night of very light playing. At most, that means maybe 100 weapons crafting experience. In order to ascend that particular tree by grinding, one must make 7,792 blaster rifle barrels (Each is worth 115 xp, do the math). I don’t necessarily believe that the crafting experience climbing should be any quicker, but it is plagued with horrible, horrible tedium. A game should be fun, tedium is the antithesis of fun. Sadly, I’m at a loss for solutions. A far greater variety of schematics might work, and instead of grinding, in order to advance to the next skill level you had to build (not practice, build) one or two of each schematic of the previous level. For example, a tailor would have to build every shirt and robe from level 1 in order to advance to level 2, though not things like metal fasteners or other components. The problem with that, and the reason that the experience system is such an uphill swim is that many, or most people, would rather grind and climb as rapidly as possible rather than enjoy the way up. The game had to be designed not for an ideal system, but for the reality it would face.
A sense of being suckered hangs over the Galaxies-player community. We feel as though we devote not only 15 dollars but a great deal of time and effort into our dream game and we get a couple little puff balls of fun in the midst of overwhelming tedium. Many of us harbor feelings of being taken advantage of by the Devs. We see an attitude of “They’re Star Wars fans, they’ll play ANYTHING. Let’s see if we can get them to run in the scamper wheel!” Furthermore, a wide variety of us are role-players, and are constantly colliding into consistently rude, self-absorbed, leet-slang speaking fools who only want what we can give them, rather than acknowledging that we are human beings who deserve respect.
The Devs have it hard. They deal with so many requests, generated by problems in the game or by the simple stupidity and greed that plagues a certain sector of the Galaxies-playing community. They spent three years on a game just to have it tossed around on other companies’ message boards like it was the worst thing to ever be transmitted over the internet (Trust me, it’s not. *shudder*). The frustration must be crushing.
Finally, we have the message boards themselves. I admit, I only use them when I need something. I don’t like to talk on them; I’d rather talk in the game, though some aforementioned fools make that difficult. Even with my limited experience, there seems to be only griping and bad blood between Devs and players. We all are here because we want, we REALLY want Galaxies to succeed, to stand among all the other MMORPGS as a beacon of what the genre can be, and also to have a lot of fun doing it. So friends, bury the hatchet. The Devs are people who are as committed to this game as you are. Sure, they get paid to be, but they have to go into the office and deal with idiots the vast majority of the day. Devs, we aren’t really all idiots, and we do appreciate your efforts. The frustration sparked off by this game should not be enough to make us blind to the common goal that we all share. [/quote]
Frankly speaking I don't feel the advantage rate is slow, and I assume this fast rate of advantage is because the game is young and the developers want to 'mature' the player base faster. In all honesty I thinkthe rate of advantage isvery fast.Although I have played only for a few days (and I have already mastered the Artisan and Surveyor now),but reading the boards andspeaking with people ingames I have thefeeling I am able to mastera lot ofprofessions in one week. Now look atone of the biggest player based MMORPG's (UO), it took me almost 8 months to become grandmaster blacksmith it the past. People(notnecessarily directed toyou) should understand that MMORPG's are meant to be played (and enjoyed) for a long time. I will not be surpised if SOE has a 10 year business model for SWG; e.g. UO started end 1997, Lineage 1998, EQ 1999.
Further more I was very surprised that the developers have incorporated macro tools. But on the other hand the latter was not so suprising.Onthe Pre Beta boards many people (including me) havesuggested the macro tools just tolesten the burden ofrepetition but above all to prevent that 3rd parties will developmacro plug ins. The only frustration I have at this moment is the economy, but I believe that in thefuture that will be solved automatically (by the players themselves).
Galaxyburst
Galaxyburst
Sat Feb 21, 2004 5:09 pm
#6
I wrote "rate of advantage" but I believe it should be "rate of advancement", sorry English is not my main language. Uhm about my macro remarks I should add another thingie, people were banned for using macros in other games. It's a great insight from the developers to allow macro-ing and macro tools for reasons earlier mentioned.
Galaxyburst
KnnOs
Sat Feb 21, 2004 5:13 pm
#7
As I say, I'm not certain that the rate of advance needs to be sped up, but that the tedium needs to be removed. The numbers I apply above may be far too low, I've essentially provided them mainly for example. In my view, using this system would end the "One Week Grind" model (and how people keep doing this is beyond me, I must simply be the slowest player in the world) and stretch the level gain over a much longer, but more varied and interesting, period of time.
Galaxyburst
Sat Feb 21, 2004 5:31 pm
#8
KnnOs wrote:
As I say, I'm not certain that the rate of advance needs to be sped up, but that the tedium needs to be removed. The numbers I apply above may be far too low, I've essentially provided them mainly for example. In my view, using this system would end the "One Week Grind" model (and how people keep doing this is beyond me, I must simply be the slowest player in the world) and stretch the level gain over a much longer, but more varied and interesting, period of time.
KnnOS,
In the past (prior to beta) they have mentioned that master class crafters will "forget" the skill of making lower classcomponets that they need to make higher skilled items. Thus making the lower class crafters not useless (lower class supplies for higher class). Although so far I cannot say I am discontent about the crafter class, perhaps it is this thatyou are looking for.
Galaxyburst
KnnOs
Sat Feb 21, 2004 5:44 pm
#9
No, with respect, it's not what I want. What I want is a method of crafting that, while not as tedious as the ceaseless grinding, is also not hoeplessly outclassed in terms of speed. Yes, if masters forgot earlier abilities that would indeed make the earlier levels of crafter classes more economically feasible, but that is far from the main problem which I have concerned myself with
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