Artisan Archive

Having played SWG through beta and now, I will preface my post by stating how thoroughly I enjoy playing during my "free time". (Read: not working, taking care of house, kids, wife and bills)

However, having said that, I am disappointed by the lack of depth and dimension to crafting. I mean, let's admit it, we are all working on the same things, searching for the same components, trying to market the same goods, etc., etc., etc.

It would be much more immersive (which is the goal of any good MMORPG, right?) if we could "tweak" a few elements. How about this?

Devs, put in some "nuggets". What's a "nugget"? It's that hidden little piece of "gold". Specifically, let's say you complete some unique mission. As a reward, you receive a unique schematic. This schematic would allow you - and presumably only you, since we do not have the option to sell or share schematics yet - to produce this item. Or, you could limit the number of each "nugget". Okay, there are only 15 XYZ rifle schematics that we randomly sprinkle about each galaxy, 10 QRS pistol schematics, 12 FGH carbines, 12 MNO armors, 14 TUV cake schematics, etc.

Now, the idea of these schematics would not be that they be uber-weapons, foods, goods. Certainly, as with all goods, experimentation could improve each item by percentages. It would just add greater depth to the game, allowing a finite number of craftspeople to produce certain items. Who knows, as a novice artisan, perhaps you are given a schematic for a new rifle that helped you choose the path of weaponsmith so you could produce said rifle - a path you might not have chosen otherwise.

Now, to add more dimension to the game, I would like to see the opportunity to not just experiment on an object - thereby improving it by degrees - but to also perform more evolutionary/revolutionary work on goods. What would this look like?

Take a basic CDEF rifle. Upon achieving the level of novice weaponsmith, you should have the ability to invest all of your general crafting experimentation points into an evolutionary/revolutionary effort that would take that CDEF weapon from a Level 0 weapon to Level 1. You're not just making incremental improvements, you are making improvements of magnitude.

Post comments. Hopefully this will engender some good debate for the devs to chew on. (5...4...3...2...1...and the flames begin! :smileyvery-happy

I like the idea of having a few different schematics around that you can find or win. Cool idea.

I had thought it would be cool if each character got a few "twists" to their schematics. I think they've already done this just a little, since I've noticed two different head wraps, and I can only make one type. I think they should take this futher. Have 5 or so different "Styles" for a lot of the items, and then each character gets them randomly.

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MoffTiberius wrote:

. As a reward, you receive a unique schematic. This schematic would allow you - and presumably only you, since we do not have the option to sell or share schematics yet - to produce this item. Or, you could limit the number of each "nugget". Okay, there are only 15 XYZ rifle schematics that we randomly sprinkle about each galaxy, 10 QRS pistol schematics, 12 FGH carbines, 12 MNO armors, 14 TUV cake schematics, etc.

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I really like the idea of speical schematics. I think that the schematics can be mob dropped and then the person looting it comes to his/her local carfter for its assembly. I think this would give crafters more interaction with the community because they would be providing a unique service. I would make the schematics one use items that poof after use or at least in limited quanties as you suggested.

There would have to be some kinda protection in place to protect people from unfair crafters who took the schematics and not give the item up but other then that I think this would work great!!.

Another idea I'd been toying around with was a more indepth expermination system that actaully allowed you to research and create new items all together. Not just experiment no existing items but make totally new ones.

Yet another idea lol add consignment missions to get crafters out into the world and traveling. Along with credits for a reward maybe add in a special cache of resources that can only be obtained though NPCs that give missions.

I enjoy crafting but I do agree that is needs more depth, more varity in items, many more schematics and be more interactive.

Nobula,

Read your post, as well. You've certainly suggested some great ideas, however the scope of implementing them would be immense. The "royalty" proposal could become burdensome. If I purchase a schematic from someone who purchased it from someone who purchased it from someone who invented it, who gets the royalty off of my production? The original inventor? Or the person that I purchased it from? If you do the original inventor, then why would I want to purchase a schematic off of someone? Sure, I can make their goods, but then they get money from me. If you were to provide an incentive for schematic sales, such as only allowing the royalty to be paid to the last seller, then why would I sell my schematics to someone else if they are just going to turn right around and sell it to another person, never make an item from the schematic themselves, and just rake in money from others production that could have been mine? Again, it becomes rather cumbersome. I would like to see schematic sales incorporated, but I think it would be best and simplest to just keep it a straight sale.

I like the idea of reverse engineering, but would like to see this be incorporated at every level of artisan advancement. Meaning? Just as you get experimentation points, you get RE points. So, at novice artisan, you get 1 point (10%). Now, what can you do with this point? Well, you find a "nugget" or puchase a schematic that, at NA level you would not be able to normally build, you go to a crafting station and have one chance per schematic -or object, if it is something looted or found -to reverse engineer that item. If you are able to reverse engineer the object, you can now begin to produce that item. If you are unable to reverse engineer, you must wait until you gain another point, through advancement, to try again. Wouldn't it be cool to pick up a scout blaster off of a thug somewhere, reverse engineer the blaster as a engineer 3, and begin to produce that item then?

I like your idea of "invention" though I see it more as "creative combinations" than inventions. An invention would be something novel. I don't see how this could be easily managed. However, creative combinations is something that could be readily managed. It would simply require assigning a value to items that would reflect how readily those items could be combined with other items of the same type. So, lets say that casual pants have a combination value of .50 (reflecting percentages). Then, let's say that the casual shirt has a cv of .50, as well. Now, let's say you attempt to combine the two. Multipy the cv's, yielding a combined cv of .25. Now, factor in engineering skills, as well. For every level gained in engineering, you gain a .05 increase in cv. The person combining pants and shirt is an engineer 3. He/she starts with a base cv of .1. So, at eng 3, his/her cv is .25. Add that to the cv for the pant/shirt combination and he/she has a .5 chance of creating a new clothes schematic called a jumpsuit. Now, this would require "typing" each object, so that pistol could not be combined with jacket to create a "jacket with pistol up sleeve" combo. There would need to be some method for saying that this object and that object can be combined. Perhaps have a whole series of schematics that can ONLY be unlocked through creative combinations.

I, like you, am very interested in seeing the artisan profession - and its elite professions - gain more depth. Everyone seems to be searching for the same materials and fashioning the same items and marketing the same goods and trying to find a way to get ahead of the competition. I believe that is why you are seeing the complaints about sale prices, etc. The only way, at this point, to gain a market advantage is to sell cheaper than the competition. Yes, others are gaining an advantage through progressing in their profession. However, that method of competition in this "reality" does not square with reality. Presumably, in the real world, items can continue to be improved until they are replaced by evolutionary/revolutionary items. In SWG, you can only to to master 'whatever'. Items will reach an asymptotic limit of ability. Without significant diversity, I am afraid that this economy will not be sophisticated enough to devolve into a Galactic Civil Price War. Hopefully the devs are seeing this out beyond the 6-12 month window. However, in order to create and sustain a vibrant long-term economy, more depth and dimension must be added, or you will see newbies logging on their first day, running to the bazaar, and running away with composite armor with shielding and T21 rifles for their entry 250 credits.

I like this idea as well. Other MMORPG's used unique drops with pretty good success. This would also encourage us crafters to get out more!

I am going to challenge the thought that there isn't depth to crafting in this game however. Having played EQ, Asheron's Call, Anarchy Online and Dark Age of Camelot; SWG has set the new standard in player crafting. I still keep my Camelot account active, but can't even imagine going back to craft in that game.

I think there are a lot of subtle aspects of crafting that a lot of players are not pursuing. Certainly attributes of resources are an important part of it, but I keep getting the impression there's more to it. Resource management alone is very immersive in terms of crafting, let alone things like experimentation points (number of points, sequencing of experimentation, combinations of experiment attributes), quality of crafting tools, etc.

An alternative to the unique schematics approach is to enable weapons, armor etc.the way that it is done for powerups. Different combinations of resources and experimentations yield a broad array of powerup attributes.For the weapons I have been able to craft so far,these same combinations don't seem to yield quite as much diversity. Higher level weapons shouldn't just be afunction of"grinding" up the tree, but a function of take the time to bring the right combination of resources, experimentation and tools together. One of the problems that occurred ina game like Camelot, was there was a great quest to have a given weapon or armor. That leads to extreme camping.

I wouldn't want to see too many schematics floating around the game. For weaponsmith (for example),then the quest is for"the schematic". As it is, the quest is for "the next level of firearms". Game modifications have to focus on creating an incentive for the crafter to find the right resources, tools, experimentations. Right now they arecontinue to lean toward theincentive to "grind".

Rather than, or in addtion to, unique schematics might be unique tools.Tools that have better yields or give experimentation pointbonuses. Or enablecrafting tools, like power up are. It is still hard to tell what an improved tool is doing in terms of improving crafting. I know it does, but tool attributes are hard to pin down.

Just my 2 cents.

Permethrin, I think that your comment on tool specialization is very sound. Wouldn't it be great if, rather than just a weapon crafting tool, you could create a tool that would allow you to really trick out the damage, but that you wouldn't be able to effect the range. Perhaps it would provide a different look/"feel" to each object. The schematics for these tools might be something that could be "nuggeted".

However, I will say, I disagree about the number of schematics. I would even go so far as to feel that it would provide tremendous depth by allowing a weaponsmith to focus in one craft of weapon, say, firearms. Or, even more specifically, say carbines. That's not to say that anyone would have to focus that narrowly. But, if someone wanted to, allow for that degree of specialization. Perhaps that could be the way in which more schematics would be provided. If you decide to focus in firearms, perhaps you could choose from 4 different schematics that would not otherwise be available (which would, of course, necessitate the need to not sell/trade schematics, since it would break down the whole goal of specialization). Futher, if you focus in firearms, you get say 2 more experimentation points for that specialty rather than the usual number of points for other weapons.

I, for one, would love to be able to set up a shop where I could say, "Come to me for your rifles. I have more selections and better quality rifles than anyone around. Now, if you want pistols, I know a Wookie over the way who makes a really mean Widget. However, MoffT is the way to go for your rifle needs." That's the kind of economy that would really provide some meat. Not to say that this one isn't fun. It is...for now. However, I still predict that this is going to wear down after 6-12 months.

Keep 'em coming.

I had posted some suggestions for a more in-depth crafting experience but no one seems to pay it any mind:

re: http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=artisan&message.id=7129
[ How the Artisan/Crafter class can be more engaging. ]

I think it would address many of the issues with people underselling the market, finding that special niche' in the game, a truly creative way to play a crafter, etc.

I agree with what you're writing here but am also curious to hear what you think of my ideas. I believe that 'bonus' schematics would be a boon to the artisan community and I hope the devs pick up on the idea (if they haven't already). I would like to take it to the next level...see if we can't get an even more robust system for creating items unique to a specific character in the game.

-nob

Mofft,

Thank you for the thoughtful response to my post:
[How the Artisan/Crafter class can be more engaging.]

http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=artisan&message.id=7129

You say that the concept of 'royalties' becomes messy. I don't think it would. My concept was that the royalty went to the original 'inventor' of a schematic. It wasn't my idea to create a re-sellers market for schematics. It was merely that if I purchased one I would be doing so to either re-create the product directly or as a component in a completely NEW schematic. Either way, the original author would receive their credits (automatically). Should I create a new jacket and sell the schema to an armorsmith that uses it as the foundation for an armored jacket that becomes part of an armored suit schema, the royalty percentages would roll back as follows:

Jacket Inventor: 10% royalty fee
Amored Jacket: 10% royalty fee
Armored Suit:10% royalty fee

I buy the Amored Suit for 10,000 creds.
1000creds (10% of the 10,000cred profit) roll back to the Armored Jacket creator
100creds (10% of the 1000cred profit) roll back to the Jacket creator

The idea behind 'royalties' serves two purposes:

1) artisans are rewarded for their efforts to create 'unique item combinations'
2) individual 'styles' begin to surface from the artisan community
3) seeing the same item over and over from everyone gives way to unique items from different vendors

(your example of, "Mofft has the best rifles but there is a wookie with abetter widget" comes to life with this)

I agree that the changes I suggested are rather expansive—each creatable object would need some sort of table defining what valid combinations could exist. Not easy and probably impossible to impliment with their current data structures but the suggestion stands as my cry for a more robust crafting system. Permethrin, I agree that SWG has one of the most developed crafting systems I've played in an MMORPG but it still has a long way to go if it is to remain rewarding, challenging and frankly just plain fun after 6-12 months.

Devs, there are some great ideas floating around these posts...I hope you see them.

-nob

As I have thought about it, though, I still don't think unique schematics should enter the game as NPC drops. That doesn't help the crafter who is trying to stay true to the trade. Unique schematics should come from experimentation, not as random drops.

One of the things I found unique about Asheron's Call 1 (not sure if this has changed as I didn't play if for too long) was the spell system. Many spells were uniquely crafted based on the combination of items. The problem with the design was they were self-nerfing.

Why not keep a few open component slots on general weapon schematics. Then have a more diverse array of barrels, power handlers, scopes, stocks, etc. As I try different combinations I create a greater diversity of weapons. Through experimentation, I then find a unique schematic. That puts the premium on experimentation and not on grinding or running out for random missions.