Artisan Archive

** BUMP!! **

Thanks for re-posting this note here Nobula. It's where it belongs now.

I just wanted to say again that I think this would make the crafting classes so much more interesting to play. I hope that SOE sees notes like this and take note.

Also, thank you for posting an intelligent series of thoughts without ranting and raving about all that is going wrong in the game. The boards need more thoughtful posts like this rather than hurtful and needless criticism.

((Interesting ideas Nobula. I'm not very familiar with artisan issues, but I have noticed that artisans do a lot of grinding with little real payoff. By payoff, I don't only mean money...the real payoff in games like this is a sense of accomplishment and place. This lack of payoff worries me, as one of the major potential strengths I see for SWG is the need for quality artisans. I still have not found any particularly good rifles out there...my rifle skill has been levelling up fairly well, but the weapons I find don't move up with those skills. If it weren't for CHs out there, us warrior types would never be able to take on the tougher mobs out there. The same story goes for all the items you can get in the game. There's some progress...but it just isn't unique or interesting.

From the consumer perspective I really would love to see more ability for the artisans to make a personal niche because it would make it so I could make my own niche more unique.

Not knowing anything about how SWG is actually coded, it is hard to say exactly how Nobula's ideas or similar ones could be added to the game. However, it seems to me that with some clever coding it would not be all that hard to set up some basic rules for creation of new objects. One might worry about overloading the DB...if that were to become a problem, one could limit the number of unique items an artisan is allowed to create. Of course, if a crafter wanted to go beyond that number (which would increase w/ their skill level I would think) they'd have to somehow delete all instances of the existing items...so you'd only want to mass-sell items that you're pretty sure you want to keep on your datapad for a while.

Anyway...I hope the devs listen to things like this...SWG has some really neat potential.))

Great ideas! One of the things I think would make the box gaps more bearable would be to sort of break them down a little further.
Ex: You're a Novice (Master Artisian Profession). It's a bit of xp til you even get that first box and some new schematics. What I would do is instead of giving out say 4 new schematics at Box 1, you would get 1 new one every 1/4 of the way to Box 1 and you would get to choose from the list so you could learn them in the order you want.
I'm halfway to Novice Tailor now. I gave up on grinding a while ago, b/c frankly, i only have time to play about 12 hours a week. I want some fun when I play, not sitting around trying to make skills. I know it's not about powering through any given skill tree. But on the other hand, I also don't want it to take over a month for me to get, say, Casual Wear I after I finally make Novice Tailor.
Combat types can go out and fight til their hearts content (I'm 13k away from Pistol Specialist, i can attest to this) and it doesn't seem like grinding.
Entertainers/Medics are almost always in demand no matter where you go.
It's not easy socializing while you're crafting away. Although I have started to try and do more on the spot sales than Bazaar sales.

Last night I logged in and spent about 45 minutes tending to my harvesters (one is way up in the mountains, so it takes a long time to run to it cause I am moving slower due to the slope).

Checked my email and saw that about 14 pieces of my Mabari Armor had sold off the bazaar, and a few travel packs and other gadgets off my vendor. I went back to my house and started making replacements for them to restock the bazaar. This took about 1 1/2 hours as I was destroying pieces of armor that weren't meeting my quality standards.

I head into town and on the way I get a /tell asking me if I can make a pair of pants with sockets in them. I do.

I go into town and restock the bazaar with my new items. I then receive a /tell from someone wanting 50 Electronic GP Modules. I have all the materials except for the gas, so I run out and sample up 150 unites of gas real quick.

I go back to my house and grind out 50 GP modules and make the transaction with the buyer, who then also wants a new set of clothes. I explain to him that I am only a Novice Tailor but he doesn't mind, so I work with him on a new outfit.

Then it was time to logout.

How could the crafting classes BE any more engaging?

I've been playing SWG since launch and have tried to create a master artisan (with aspirations of one day becoming a master tailor). The further along I get in the crafting 'tree' of items, the more difficult it becomes to advance—this is as it should be. The unfortunate thing, however, is that when I do finally advance the payoff is less than encouraging. I believe that the reason for this is that I have now just earned to ability to build the same set of objects that every one else can make (some better than others, but essentially the same).

It is difficult to make a name for oneself through your products if any schmo can do the same thing. This causes lots of people to give up on the crafting professions entirely and try something else—ultimately leaving the job to the 'masters' who can make bikinis, powerful droids and weapons, etc. Once this happens and the only ones left crafting high-end items are low in number, you have monopolies, price fixing and the entire economy takes a turn for the worse. It isnot too rewardingto provide competition by offering the same products with only color variation and potentially minor stat differences—essentially the only thing you have to offer the world is a lower price for your trouble. While in theory this simple economic works, what we need (to make the artisan class more enjoyable)is a greater variety of products so that one can establish a name for themselves through their creativity, hard work and time—not how quickly they saturate the market with 'casual pants.'

My suggestions for this problem are as follows:

1) Allow crafters to actually INVENT their own schematics. By this, I mean that crafting should entail more than simply dropping some hide and petro-chem in a slot and >>BAM!!<< casual pants. You should only be able to make basic components from raw materials. Only basic components can be used to build a complex object like a wearable or working weapon.If low-level crafters were able to only make simple products like fiberplast panels, metal clasps,gun barrels and muzzels instead of completed weapons or outfits,novice artisanswould supply components to the higher-levledcrafters. Ata higher and more specialized level, an artisan can now use the basic components (metal clasp, fiberplast panel and synthetic cloth) to assemblea more refined,finished wearable—like a casual jacket. At an even more advanced level a tailor could take a completed wearable like a casual jacket and a bandolier and usethem as components in something new and unique like 'the bandolier jacket.' By combining different elements, higher-level crafters could, in fact, create completely original and unique outfits—now we have variety. A successful combination of items could then be saved as a schematic for further reproduction and/or sold to someone else. Earning the ability to actually contribute unique items to the world definitely creates far more compelling reason to advance in level than to simply catch up to everyone else's repetoire.

2) Schematics& royalties.Schematics are, after all, simply recipies to be followed. Inventors will automatically have a 'learned' version of a schematic in their datapad. Schematics can be copied from the datapad and sold to other artisans wishing to make your new invention. To this end, a royalty rate can be assigned to a schematic. What this means is that whoever builds from this schematic will pay the author/inventor a percentage royalty fee—though you can copy and resell a schematic, only the original author can set and receive royalty fees. It is, entirely possible for someone else to imitate your schematic and create their own (introducing patents could be too complicated...or possibly something only a Master Tailor, droidmaker, etc. would be capable of doing). Learning a schematic can work much the same way a 'tamed' pet now becomes a part of your datapad.The item can now be built by the crafter(same as any other item, no need for factories as they should only be for mass production anyway). If a crafter does not posses the skills to assemble the item, they will be met with failures or flawed versions of the product. Allowing crafters to profit from their creationswould rewardthem for inventing desireable new products as well as motivate up and coming crafters to experiment with new design techniques, product combinations, etc.

3) Inherent schematics and the ability to steal them. I believe that every item in the game should be open to 'reverse engineering.' What this means is that if you have the physical item in your posession, you should be able to 'extract' a schematic on how to build it from the item. This should be a skill that needs to be developed (possibly the smuggler's slicing skill). The higher the level ofthe original author, the harder reverse engineering a product (without flaws or total failure) will be. A high-levelslicer would have a better chance of flawlessly re-creating the original schematic while a low-level spy might created a flawed copy (very much like a fake Rolex.) Once a schematic has been 'extracted' successfully it can be sold or 'learned' by the extractor. To steal a schematic will also remove any royalty settings assigned by the author. On an interesting note, a slicer who steals the schematic could (when selling it) assign his/her own royalty rate and profit as if they were the original author. Imagine a world where crafters could pay a corporate spy to steal a schematic for them!

Scenario 1:

A tailor invents a new jacket design by combining a vest with a ribbed-sleeve shirt. The new design is attractive so the tailor creates a schematic and assigns a 10% royalty to it. The tailor then combines this new 'ribbed jacket' with a formal belt and a pair of ribbed pants—the resulting combination is a new 'ribbed jumpsuit.' The tailor creates a new schematic and assigns a 25% royalty to it. The new ribbed jackets and jumpsuits are a hit and everyone is wearing them. A rival tailor who has failed to invent anything as popular enlists the aid of a corporate spy to reverse engineer the ribbed jumpsuit. The corporate spy, either through a lack of skill or the fluke of making a mistake creates a flawed schematic which will produce a similar-looking outfit with only half of the durability of the original. The corporate spy sells the stolen schematic to the tailor who promptly learns it. The rival tailor can now product inferior 'knockoffs' of the ribbed jumpsuit.

Scenario 2:

An armorsmith sees that everyone likes to walk around in the ribbed jumpsuit or jacket. He contacts the inventor of the ribbed jacket/jumpsuits and asks to purchase their schematics. The inventor agrees and sells the armorsmith the schematics. The armorsmith now goes to work building both a ribbed jacket and a ribbed jumpsuit. Once these are built, he then proceeds to use the jumpsuit and jacket as components in a suit of armor. The armor smith now creates armored plates from fiberplast and steel: two leg plates, a waist piece, torso plating, bracers, arms and shoulders. The successful combination creates a new schematic—the 'armored ribbed jumpsuit.' The armorsmith sells this new armored version of the outfit for 10,000 credits. As the tailor's jumpsuit schematic as the foundation for this armor, the jumpsuit's inventor will receive a 25% royalty fee every time this piece of armor is sold. In this case, the original inventor of the ribbed jumpsuit would receive 2500 credits.

_____

I believe that a system that approached this level of 'ownership' and competition could significantly bolster the artisan community and frankly make the game a lot more interesting for this class. For hunters there are the possibilities of PvP or running missions that require life and death struggles. For the artisan, you're pretty much relegated to an afternoon in front of a crafting machine making items your inventory can't hold for an audience that does not really wish to buy them. Let's spice things up for the crafters!

Nobula

I'm not saying that the Artisan class has no personal value—that is obviously not true. What I'm suggesting is simply a way to introduce creative challenges to the role that allows a player to be a bit more complex in theirfunction than is currently the case.

I agree with you Nenlaven. The experience of a crafter is filled with things to keep track of and do. I believe, however, that life is less fulfilling when there are 20 other artisans with the exact same skill set as you (able to ultimately create to your standard of quality, etc.) living in your town and conducting business same as you. Now allyou're left with arethe price, name and color schemewith which to leave any sort of mark on the world.

Essentially, what I'm proposing is a way to make the artisan experience deeper than simply grinding out the same products as everyone else. I'm proposing a layer of creativity that allows and rewards players for contributing to the shape and feel of their culture.

This post was not a complaint but merely a set of suggestions that (I believe) could enhance the crafting dynamic of the game.

-Nobula

Nob,

Please see my reply to your thread in my thread on "Adding depth and dimension..."

Good post.

MoffT

thanks...perhaps we should somehow combine threads?

I like the idea, but the one thing that comes to mind with inventing stuff, is there needs to nbe graphics to support it. Otherwise the item would have to look like something that is already in the game, and called something else. Unless someone wants to code some sort of organic system that can create new models from combinations of existing ones. I wouldn't hold your breath. Be happy when the game runs smooth. =]

Agreed J-Roddingham,

Items would have to be broken into smaller pieces for "re-combination" to work. It already does to a certain effect with armor. You can wear bone-armor leggings with a Chittn Breast Plate and Padded sleeves with Leather gloves. My suggestion was along the lines that to make a 'custom jacket' from a sleeveless vest and a ribbed shirt would simply be to say: "ribbed arms and vest torso all linked as one 'body' unit" The graphics engine isn't required to 'morph' anything. I'm talking 'simple re-combinations' of parts. It would, however, mean that 'simple' objects like a jacket would have to be broken into two sleeves and a vest (so to speak) and that would be a bit of a pain for the artists to re-texture things so their 'joints' met properly.

Also, I am completely in support of them getting the game to run smoothly (at the cost of everything else I support it!) but it doesn't stop me from dreaming up ways this game could be more entertaining while I'm waiting to log on ;-)

SWG has been one of the more successful MMORPGs at 'masking the grind' but it is still there—I'm just hoping they'll be able to give it more meaning in the future (when the system is stable).

-n